English Chess Forum

I think that a number of posts in the last day or two have been very productive. It is good to see people who seldom take part expressing an opinion. It would be unfortunate if others were not allowed to contribute. Carl is right that points should not be repeated, or at least not too often.

I am expecting a further contribution from a GM and would like to wait until it arrives at the very least.

If Alex wants to keep the thread open, I have no objection.

But on that basis, perhaps he or Lara would like to take the opportunity to condemn those who have made homophobic remarks in the various threads discussing this topic?

I am sure these are not the kind of supporters they want, given Lara's statement clarifying she supports Stonewall.

I am quite willing to condemn all forms of bigotry be it homophobic, religious or whatever. Coming from the Glasgow area it was impossible to escape religious bigotry when I grew up and to be the victim of it when as a non catholic I taught in a catholic school. Though it has to be said that in that case none of the bigotry came from the pupils. It is the latter fact that makes me confident that we are working towards an end to all forms of blinkered thinking.

Ernie Lazenby wrote:

Paul Cooksey wrote:If Alex wants to keep the thread open, I have no objection.

But on that basis, perhaps he or Lara would like to take the opportunity to condemn those who have made homophobic remarks in the various threads discussing this topic?

I am sure these are not the kind of supporters they want, given Lara's statement clarifying she supports Stonewall.

I have reported this post to the moderators because to say anyone has posted homophobic remarks in this thread or any other is scandless. Had anyone done so I would have been the first to complain. Posts like this really dont help anyone not least CJ.
Sorry I had to comment on this.

As is your right, I'll be happy to discuss it with the moderators.

There was a discussion in the CJ banned thread to which I felt Stonewall's lawyer would take exception. I was unhappy to see the person who started that conversation expressing his view on CJ again.

Paul Cooksey wrote:I do not intend to comment publicly further.

I really didn't, but if we do think it useful to continue the discussion...

Clearly there is now a lot of history to absorb for someone new to the thread. But with respect to Judy Brown, I think her post misses the point under discussion. No-one is claiming CJ's t-shirt was appropriate to the prizegiving.

What is at issue is the reasonableness of his response to being asked not to wear it. I have stated I believe there was a misunderstanding with fault on both sides, and that CJs existing statement was adequate and no further admission of fault on his part was required. Others have disagreed, in some cases strongly and at length.

I think important posts buried in the history, for those new to the discussion are:
1. CJs account at the time which I think he now considers an overreaction
2. The statements issued In which CJ acknowledges his overreaction and Lara acknowledges the misunderstanding
3. Alex's open letter at the start of this thread.

The deadline I set Mr De Mooi to respond has now passed. He has not done so and I consider this regrettable.

However, due to activities both on and off the forum, I think it in the best interests of everyone that I delay the call for an EGM.

I do, of course, reserve the right to do so and would seek as much support as possible if it comes to that.

I cannot now put a deadline on this as it will depends on what happens, or indeed what doesn't happen.

Ray Keene as made some small positive steps, though these are a long way short of what is needed. We can only hope Mr De Mooi does likewise.

all right, back on topic briefly, and then it's good night from me.

I hope that the problems can be resolved. But it does seem to me that Alex has been trying to extract an apology from CJ and Keene for three months now, and it must have eaten up much of life during this time. Nothing would ever have happned if he had not gone public, and the Board's refusal to declare whether or not it supported Alex until it heard the PCC decision has since been revealed to be the delaying tactic that it always looked like. We still don't know their position even now. Keene only started to move today, on the day of the deadline, and it appears that CJ is only considering a meeting with Alex and an intermediary.

CJ and friends - this is very slow and painful. If it turns out that you are playing for time and are only intent on making minor concessions to Alex after a further delay, then I and plenty of others will still support Alex if he does decide to call for an EGM.

Jonathan Rogers wrote:CJ and friends - this is very slow and painful. If it turns out that you are playing for time and are only intent on making minor concessions to Alex after a further delay, then I and plenty of others will still support Alex if he does decide to call for an EGM.

Uncompromising language entrenches positions, I think we should try to avoid it.

My first reaction, even as someone trying to be moderate, was "so call an EGM as quickly as possible, lets get this finished one way or the other". Then I have to remind myself these weren't Alex's words, he hasn't said anything since his last post which I found encouraging. My first reaction is inappropriate because this isn't a game, and certainly not one with two just outcomes to fight over.

Perhaps you're right Paul. But then again, I don't think that Alex would have made any progress at all had the threat of an imminent EGM not made an impact. I would prefer to be conciliatory after a just outcome is reached.

Not sure why I'm bothering but here goes.

The few pages of this forum have gone off topic, offensively so. To be fair there is little more to say on the original subject for the time being as Alex and CJ are meeting to discuss their differences, which is a step in the right direction.

There is evidence to suggest that Raymond Keene reads this forum and I'm sure he is killing himself laughing - and I for one don't blame him. What started off as a serious, if inflamed, debate about the treatment Alex and Lara have received at the hands of various individuals and has degenerated into a discussion The Beano would reject for being too childish. The credibility of this forum has gone downhill quicker than I can say CJ de Mooi.

But what would I know?

Good to see Raymond has made kind of an overture to Alex.
There can be no war if both sides are still talking.

Now if all sides can cut each other just a wee piece of slack and
meet in the middle then this matter should be resovled.

Chess needs CJ, Alex and Lara. All of them do excellent jobs.
It would be a great pity if any of the three were lost to chess.

Raymond can end this without losing face. Infact quite the reverse.
Everybody and their dog jumped on the bandwagon. If I recall only
Joey and Kris K. kept saying "wait for the facts."

Facts? to hell with facts, everyone waded in.

To be honest this thread has been bombarded with so many posts which have now been moved but along with some relevant posts it is almost impossible to follow. As I posted earlier, though I am now pretty certain it was the case, it seems some people were happy to hijack this thread and thereby take it off the original point.
It's just added to what was already a farcical situation and dragged chess down to a level which I never thought possible. Shameful.

Hi Chris.

I have never ever seen an argument like this resolved in a public forum.

They simply wimper out or descend into a complete fun filled farce.

I'm sure 'coming out' was the last thing Alex wanted. He knows these forums
are haunted by a handful of nutters, fools and idiots.
(I'm in there somewhere - some would say all three, I don't care.)
But as I see it he had no choice.

There is very little more to be added as to the matter all we can really do
is wait for an update from Alex.

This entire thread would not have swayed anyone who matters future decision
on the issue. It may have set it back by being made public but that is all.

chrisobee wrote:To be honest this thread has been bombarded with so many posts which have now been moved but along with some relevant posts it is almost impossible to follow. As I posted earlier, though I am now pretty certain it was the case, it seems some people were happy to hijack this thread and thereby take it off the original point.
It's just added to what was already a farcical situation and dragged chess down to a level which I never thought possible. Shameful.

We are danger of going off on a tangent again. This is strong stuff and I'd like to rebut it. Maybe we could split into a "Meta-open letter thread"

Geoff Chandler wrote:Hi Chris.

I have never ever seen an argument like this resolved in a public forum.

They simply wimper out or descend into a complete fun filled farce.

I'm sure 'coming out' was the last thing Alex wanted. He knows these forums
are haunted by a handful of nutters, fools and idiots.
(I'm in there somewhere - some would say all three, I don't are.)
But as I see it he had no choice.

There is very little more to be added as to the matter all we can really do
is wait for an update from Alex.

This entire thread would not have swayed anyone who matters future decision
on the issue. It may have set it back by being made public but that is all.

Hi Geoff,
Yes, you make good points. What I have actually written up until now is quite mild in terms of what I actually believe. I have made Alex very aware of my support for himself and Lara in a private message and I suspect I have taken more time than most to look at what has happened and base my views on not only that but also on what I already knew. If the grass roots ECF membership are happy to have as their President someone who in the past was openly disdainful of them ( I would stand up in any court, anywhere and state that based on past conversations with CJ De Mooi ) then let them carry on. It is no skin off my nose but when I see an injustice taking place I will exercise my right to speak up. Chess has been my major passion for 40 years, I refuse to remain silent in the face of such ignorance.

Sincerely,

Chris O'Bee