Draughts/Checkers and Chess

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Draughts/Checkers and Chess

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:48 am

John McKenna wrote: Also, if two irrationals are multiplied or divided a rational results!
Not always, or even usually, true. The product of two irrationals can be rational or irrational.

Bill Porter
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Re: Draughts/Checkers and Chess

Post by Bill Porter » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:47 am

John McKenna wrote:Bill Porter >... rational numbers aren't generally purer than irrational(s)... just because there are more of them...<
The rationals and irrationals should the other way round. There's an infinite number of rationals but there's a greater (infinite) number of irrationals.
'them' of course referred to the irrational numbers. :oops:
I've also discovered a wonderful proof that white is in zugzwang at his first move and must lose.
As I'm rather off topic I won't post it.

John McKenna

Re: Draughts/Checkers and Chess

Post by John McKenna » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:51 pm

Thanks to Bill for precisely stating that rationals aren't necessarily purer than irrationals just because there are more irrationals. (Ancient Greeks thought the rationals purer and abhorred irrationals.)
Jack's right - the result of multiplication or division of two irrationals can be either rational or irrational. My pronouncement fell short. But, when is it one rather than the other? (Don't know the answer but believe there may be one.)
Back on topic - what's the weight of having 1st move in draughts?

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Draughts/Checkers and Chess

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:43 pm

John McKenna wrote:Jack's right - the result of multiplication or division of two irrationals can be either rational or irrational. My pronouncement fell short. But, when is it one rather than the other? (Don't know the answer but believe there may be one.)
Example off the top of my head: Pi is irrational. Pi squared is Pi*Pi (so it's a multiplication of two irrationals), but Pi squared is also irrational.

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Draughts/Checkers and Chess

Post by Stewart Reuben » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:18 pm

John McKenna >Back on topic - what's the weight of having 1st move in draughts?<

I had already commentated that I had seen it suggested that the second person to move has the advantage in draughts, the 8x8 version.

Andrew Bak
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Re: Draughts/Checkers and Chess

Post by Andrew Bak » Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:17 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
John McKenna wrote: Also, if two irrationals are multiplied or divided a rational results!
Not always, or even usually, true. The product of two irrationals can be rational or irrational.
As anyone who has manipulated surds will know, sqrt 2 is irrational, as is sqrt 3.

sqrt 2 x sqrt 2 = 2 - rational

sqrt 2 x sqrt 3 = 2.449 etc - irrational

John McKenna

Re: Draughts/Checkers and Chess

Post by John McKenna » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:26 pm

My thanks to Alex H, Stewart and Andrew for the above answers. Food for thought.

Simon Smith
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Re: Draughts/Checkers and Chess

Post by Simon Smith » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:25 pm

I play in what I believe is the only draughts club in the West Midlands. There's only about 12 of us. Tony Hynes, whom many of you will know is one of us. We play on Saturdays. It fits in well with when there is no chess to be played at the weekend. With have a mini league and cup competition ! :-)

It's a great game. I love chess, but believe draughts to be a purer game because of the minimal rules. I always say that in our universe you can bet there are more games resembling draughts than chess !

Draughts is a totally unforgiving game. With chess you may get away with something, in draughts no !

Our club has a 10x10 European draughts even minier league than our 8X8 (I don't play this !). Obviously more sophisticated than 8x8 draughts/checkers. Players come up from London to play !

(I would like to volunteer in a clumsy way a more esoteric appreciation of draughts: Musicians are often very good at chess, and intense concentration at mental games does cause the individual to transcend our often banal world ....and I believe there is an associated mental sound/resonance/aesthetic thing going on in the mind when we sit back and admire a knight outpost on e5.....a nice combination..or a well played rook and pawn endgame etc.... I would say that chess is to Beethoven what Bach is to draughts. From my own experience I have achieved deeper transcendence with draughts than chess. Chess I believe is like human law, often arbitary. Moves like castling, en passant, the initial setup of pieces on the backrow creates a more jagged impression in the mind....)

John Townsend
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Re: Draughts/Checkers and Chess

Post by John Townsend » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:59 pm

Howard Staunton was not very good at draughts, according to Draughts World (as reported in the Otago Witness, 15 April 1903, p. 59). My book, Notes on the Life of Howard Staunton (pp. 73-74) includes the story of a "bachelor Easter holiday" shared by Staunton, Robert Martins (later to become one of the all-time greats of the draughts board) and Herbert Ingram, joint proprietor of the Illustrated London News, at Ingram's mansion at Swineshead, Lincolnshire. Martins had been introduced by Staunton to Ingram, whom he preceeded to fleece for a week at a sovereign a game, while Staunton stayed on the sidelines. My book also carried some biographical notes on Robert Martins, about whom I would like to know more.

Regards,

John Townsend

Michael Jones
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Re: Draughts/Checkers and Chess

Post by Michael Jones » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:11 pm

Simon Smith wrote:Draughts is a totally unforgiving game. With chess you may get away with something, in draughts no !
Good job I don't play draughts, then.

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