Chess Arbiters' Association Website

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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Chess Arbiters' Association Website

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:27 pm

In 11.3b, "A player is forbidden to have a mobile phone and/or other electronic means of communication in the playing venue. If it is evident that a player brought such a device into the playing venue, he shall lose the game. The opponent shall win.
The rules of a competition may specify a different, less severe, penalty."

Doing nothing is a "different, less severe, penalty." Or doing something if it makes a noise...

11.10, "Unless the rules of the competition specify otherwise, a player may appeal against any decision of the arbiter, even if he has signed the scoresheet (see Article 8.7)."

That implies the arbiter has signed the scoresheet.

12.8, "Spectators may only speak about a game outside the playing venue."

Good luck enforcing that (and anything else involving spectators).

Rapidplay - A.4c. "However, if there is an illegal position, the arbiter shall intervene if he observes the fact. He shall wait until the next move is completed and, if the position is still illegal, declare the game drawn."

What? He either intervenes or not. Also, if you are a rook down against a strong player, and he makes an illegal move, (like not moving out of check), you might be better off deliberately not pointing out the illegality so you get a draw, rather than 2 minutes extra in a lost position.

Glossary - "cumulative (Fischer) mode: Where a player receives an extra amount of time (often 30 seconds) prior to each move. "

after the move, surely?

I agree that the Laws need work.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Chess Arbiters' Association Website

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:49 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote: The rules of a competition may specify a different, less severe, penalty."

Doing nothing is a "different, less severe, penalty." Or doing something if it makes a noise...
There's a question of intent. If the intention is that players aren't allowed to have inert mobile phones or other electronic devices in their possession on peril of penalties, then many events in which amateur players participate are either shut down or rendered impossible to follow the FIDE laws of chess.
Kevin Thurlow wrote: Glossary - "cumulative (Fischer) mode: Where a player receives an extra amount of time (often 30 seconds) prior to each move. "

after the move, surely?
The clocks are always started at 90 minutes and 30 seconds, so 30 seconds is added before the first move. A move is then played and 30 seconds is added, before the second move.

Having reread it, I don't see the purpose of not wording the 10 repetitions rule in the same way as the 3 repetitions rule.

As the principle of arbiter intervention to terminate a game has not previously been discussed, it's not obvious why FIDE wants to introduce it.

Alex McFarlane
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Re: Chess Arbiters' Association Website

Post by Alex McFarlane » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:57 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote: after the move, surely
To expand on Roger's answer. 40 moves in 100 min + 30 sec increment. If the time is added after the move is played then you only have 1h 59 min and 30 seconds to complete the 40th move.

Doing nothing is not one of the listed penalties. A verbal warning is the minimum. The new wording also removes the part of being allowed to bring in a phone with the arbiter's permission. I assume that was deliberate. Could you then default a player for consistently refusing to record his moves yet allow another to always bring their phone?

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Greg Breed
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Re: Chess Arbiters' Association Website

Post by Greg Breed » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:16 pm

FIDE seem to get more and more ridiculous! Alex Holowczak makes the point about writing rules that cater to the masses and letting some sub committee amend them for the Elite. That makes sense. Either that or the ECF will have to once again write their own version, but how does that help with FIDE rated events? I mean, I take my mobile with me everywhere. Am I supposed to leave it at home when I go to a tournament?
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John McKenna
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Re: Chess Arbiters' Association Website

Post by John McKenna » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:23 pm

Could tournaments have a section for mobiles - sponsored by manufacturers - so we know which one is the best for chess?
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Chess Arbiters' Association Website

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:34 pm

Greg Breed wrote: Am I supposed to leave it at home when I go to a tournament?
That appears to be the intent of the new wordings, but the effect could be that if you ban the phone, you ban the player as well. If they want anyone to play, arbiters or organisers may have to extend their speeches at the start of play to say that phones aren't permitted and consider the players warned if they have one. Certainly it should be totally switched off and remain switched off for the entire duration of the game.

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Greg Breed
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Re: Chess Arbiters' Association Website

Post by Greg Breed » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:40 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:...If they want anyone to play, arbiters or organisers may have to extend their speeches at the start of play to say that phones aren't permitted and consider the players warned if they have one. Certainly it should be totally switched off and remain switched off for the entire duration of the game.
That's pretty much how it is now and I am perfectly happy with that. I would even hand my phone in if they had a ticketing system like the cloakrooms at nightclubs, but the new rules do not allow for this.
Kevin Thurlow wrote:In 11.3b, "A player is forbidden to have a mobile phone and/or other electronic means of communication in the playing venue. If it is evident that a player brought such a device into the playing venue, he shall lose the game. The opponent shall win.
It seems perfectly viable for an Elite tournament, but not for anything in the UK (except maybe the London Classic which is an Elite Tournament!).
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Chess Arbiters' Association Website

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:18 pm

Greg Breed wrote: That's pretty much how it is now and I am perfectly happy with that. I would even hand my phone in if they had a ticketing system like the cloakrooms at nightclubs, but the new rules do not allow for this.
They do and don't.

Here's the definition which is unchanged
11.2 The ‘playing venue’ is defined as the ‘playing area’, rest rooms, toilets, refreshment area, area set aside for smoking and other places as designated by the arbiter.
So you could define the cloakroom as not part of the playing venue. In many events, the London Classic springs to mind, you could not reach the cloakroom without passing through areas that were part of the playing venue. In the context of "area set aside for smoking", the lift or staircase also counts.

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Greg Breed
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Re: Chess Arbiters' Association Website

Post by Greg Breed » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:04 pm

..and which of those areas would you leave your mobile phone? I mean seriously! I'm all for anti-cheating, but these rules are clearly aimed at the master level not for the rest of us plebs who just try and enjoy a graded game for our teams! But how do they make that distinction? Is it even possible?
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Richard Bates
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Re: Chess Arbiters' Association Website

Post by Richard Bates » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:23 pm

How do you define what is a mobile phone?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Chess Arbiters' Association Website

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:30 pm

Richard Bates wrote:How do you define what is a mobile phone?
The actual phrase is
a mobile phone and/or other electronic means of communication in the playing venue.
I think a laptop or tablet would qualify and if cheating rather than noise is the presumed issue, it's also a more powerful piece of kit. But what of a really obsolete laptop without wifi?

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Rob Thompson
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Re: Chess Arbiters' Association Website

Post by Rob Thompson » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:13 am

Taking this to it's logical extreme, what would a pen with a torch on the end count as? Is that enough to be called "electronic"? Because it's clearly a method of communication. The communication could even be done electronically (using morse with the torch).
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Stewart Reuben
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Re: Chess Arbiters' Association Website

Post by Stewart Reuben » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:25 pm

Kevin T >11.10, "Unless the rules of the competition specify otherwise, a player may appeal against any decision of the arbiter, even if he has signed the scoresheet (see Article 8.7)."<
That implies the arbiter has signed the scoresheet.<

Actually it doesn't. This construct is very common, the he refers to the first person, the player. It is a problem with 'run-on' sentences.

Even so, I'll change it. "Unless the rules of the competition specify otherwise, a player may appeal against any decision of the arbiter, even if the player has signed the scoresheet (see Article 8.7)."

If you turned your torch pen on and off by morse code, that could clearly be a way of cheating. I have a defibrillator in my body. That is clearly electronic. Sometimes instead of looking for nonsensical ideas it is better to show some commonsense.
Sections of FIDE are clearly becoming paranoid about electronic cheating with good reason. There is no suggestion that a claokroom is in the playing venue, leaving your mobile phone there is fine. There are problems at the London Chess Classic and Gibraltar because the playing venue and other areas overlap. Hastings it should be easy to comply.
The current Laws require the London League to have a rule, 'contrary to the Laws of Chess'... If the change is agreed there be only a minor penalty, then this will no longer be necessary. A warning is sufficient, although I would prefer to immerse the mobile phone in water. Without an arbiter present any default rule about mobile phones is totally unworkable.


Rapidplay - A.4c. "However, if there is an illegal position, the arbiter shall intervene if he observes the fact. He shall wait until the next move is completed and, if the position is still illegal, declare the game drawn."

This is actually quite difficult. You could have it that the arbiter doesn't intevene at all. Certainly Geurt doesn't like that. So now you notice an illegal position. But how long has it been like that on the board? If you intervene right away, the game would continue, but who would be penalised? I believe, if a player's king is in check and he fails to get out of it and his opponent doesn't notice, then both players are at fault.
I spent some time explaining the difference between intervene and interfere.

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