The fine form continues!

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
Geoff Chandler
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Re: The fine form continues!

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:09 pm

Hi Roger.

Some of the blunders I've seen on RHP I have never seen in any OTB game.
These guys find ingenious ways to lose.

They don't play this way to avoid being accused of engine use.
A lot are beginners to less inexperienced players.
Couple this to the fact a lot of them are playing 20-30 people at once
(a 1400 players giving a 30 board simul?) and you have these incredible blunders.

What you are seeing is a perfectly normal intelligent human playing chess
guided by rules of thumb and things he has heard other players say.

The great lengths some go to to avoid or inflict double pawns is incredible
and of course any player with just a smattering of tactics or a favorite trap
notches up the wins. (One lad has sprung the Blackburne Trap over 20 times.)

You can see by looking at a players early games the learning process in
action. First they get caught by Scholars Mate so Nh6 starts to figure in
their games. They go for Scholars Mate themselves and see better defences.
They start to employ these.
Who ever first said you learn from your losses was spot on.
That lad who goes for the Blackburne Trap fell for it himself when
he started out!

It's Chess at it rawest level. I select games that have plausible blunders
that will be seen OTB. Some are hilarious but always instructive.
Some are totally heart breaking.

I stumbled upon this position (Black to play)



Here is what happened.



I have posted 100's of examples of missed shots like that.

Nicky Chorley
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Re: The fine form continues!

Post by Nicky Chorley » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:02 pm

Still haven't had a chance to look at and digest all of the info here, but I'll get round to it eventually. It's not like the forum is going anywhere, right? :).

Thanks all for the help. I know endgames are a problem of mine and haven't had much time to devote to study. However, I have ordered Silman's book and hope to put some time into that soon (and regularly!).

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: The fine form continues!

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:14 pm

Nicky Chorley wrote:Still haven't had a chance to look at and digest all of the info here, but I'll get round to it eventually. It's not like the forum is going anywhere, right? :)
Hopefully not, but if you haven't read what Geoff wrote yet, be aware that he answers several of the questions I posed. I had posed them in the hope that others wouldn't answer them, but it probably doesn't matter too much as long as you are able to get an idea of what sort of things you need to be aware of.

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Re: The fine form continues!

Post by Nicky Chorley » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:16 pm

Thanks Christopher :). I'll probably just avoid reading Geoff's post first of all, so I can try to find the answers myself. At least Geoff's answers will be there so I can check afterwards. Working leaves me not much time when I get home, unfortunately, as I kinda just want to do not a whole lot.

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Re: The fine form continues!

Post by Geoff Chandler » Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:32 am

Hi Chris.

It's too late, I've lost him.

The Silman book will drop through his letter box with a loud thud and he's doomed.

Games between players of his class should never reach endings.
They will be too many opening and middle game blunders.
The wise guys will spot them and bounce him.

His only hope is that the person in the company who sent him the book reads
this thread and sends him a book on tactics instead and as freebie drops in some
opening rep book to give him at an idea of why he making the opening moves
and to put tension into the position.

One chapter of Silman and he will doubling and isolating pawns at every opportunity
and expecting to win. Then wonder why his opponent got so much play along the
½ open file and scudded him.
Tactical oversights will be dismissed as just one of those things.

Doomed.

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Re: The fine form continues!

Post by Nicky Chorley » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:46 am

I'm not doomed! I've been doing tactics problems and will continue to do so :). Also, I've been told not to study openings so haven't really spent any time on them. The advice here is good, but it seems like it can be contradictory sometimes!

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Re: The fine form continues!

Post by Richard Bates » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:51 am

OK, Geoff, I'm going to enter the firing line and disagree a bit here.

I should first say that undoubtedly tactics, and spotting them are extremely important for winning games. (what was the saying? - chess is 99% tactics?). Any player (at any level) should work relentlessly on tactics, developing/maintaining sharpness, calculation skills, pattern recognition etc etc.

But to say that an entire area of the game should be neglected just because one is a weak player, playing at a very weak level, is IMO not a good route to improvement. You say that no game at this level should ever reach an ending - well fine, but the fact is that this one did, and it was played appallingly. A whole point was thrown away because of a complete cluenessness of what to do once there were no pieces left on the board. I know nothing about the book suggested, and i certainly don't suggest a level of study to take one from "beginner to master". But getting a bit beyond "beginner" would help. One might almost be tempted to draw parallels with computers - there was no serious breakthrough in computer chess until the programmers were able to get them to develop an approach to the endgame.

I did not suggest doing some work on the endgame so that one knows how to defend R+B vs R perfectly. But aside from not making a fool of yourself once you do reach that occasional endgame (and i suspect more games reach endgames than you suggest - regardless of whether they should - they are what happen when players of similar tactical ability/awareness clash) i do think there is value with working in simple positions with small numbers of pieces. And so any "basic middlegame book" with middlegame motifs highlighted with just the key pieces on the board is just, if not more, useful.

Whilst it is important to develop tactics, it is also important to be aware of one's own limitations. You give very good advice about game 6 with regards to the Nxe5 "combination" - why get involved in such unforced complications for such little potential gain? And yet on the other hand you criticise c3 in "the bye game" pointing out a four move sequence to win a pawn involving moving the queen 3 times and ending up with the queen on an exposed square. In many other circumstances that would be a recipe for disaster. 4 moves is quite a lengthy horizon for players at master strength, let alone the level we are talking about. It's not as if c3 was a bad move or played without logical purpose - it was followed up totally logically with d4. So i couldn't really criticise that.

Finally, Geoff, I think you sometimes let your love of the artistic compromise your advice slightly. Back to that endgame - after ... g5, h5 is clearly the most elegant way to win. But sometimes the mundane is the way. If short of time I would just play fxg6 without thinking and win with the outside passed pawn :)

Oh yeah, one more thing - endgames are fun. Neglect the endgame and you miss out so much...

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Re: The fine form continues!

Post by Geoff Chandler » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:50 pm

Hi Nick.

Remember I said what happens is that once the opening poster
realises there may be work involved they never come back?

This is scenario II

Conflicting advice and other lads arguing with each other.
There was a hint of it on page one with Jack and some other lad.

"I've been told not to study openings so haven't really spent any time on them."

If you are going to play 1.e4 then you will need a line against all
the stuff you are liable to meet. Each line will come with it's own bundle
of tricks and traps. The same tricks that have been catching people
out for over 150 years.

In game 4 your answer to the Petroff was 3.Nc3.
OK it's playable and you have side-stepped 90% of his theory.
He played 3...Bb5.



Hanging his e-pawn. Where did that come from?
This is his wee Petroff book speaking. It's theory.

You played 4.Nxe4
It's actually a risky pawn snatch. (risky in the sense that Black
can get some good play for it if White tries to hang onto it.)

Indeed this is the game where Black missed 7...d5



What did I say: "The move never entered his skull."

A perfect example of lower class opening play.
A little bit of theory being more dangerous than none at all.

His book suggested saccing the e-pawn. Looks like your 5.Bc4
was not mentioned by the author (or the author's computer.)
Black was on his own and missed 7...d5 exploiting the pins - tactics.

The infamous Game 6 that had the endgame experts persauding you to
part with, no doubt a large portion of your student grant, to buy a book.
(I've no idea how much the thing cost but with P & P it won't be cheap.)

It arrived this morning. I heard the dull thud up in Edinurgh.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Nc3 d6



No sign of any opening theory here. 4....Nxe5 and the pawn fork trick
is the established line. (could have been a sneaky...but I doubt it.)

You did not play 5.Ng5 which was screaming out to be played.
5.Ng5 and you go mainline with a tempo up. 5.d4 was also a shot.

Now we have a stab at what Black would have played.
Remember (could have been a sneaky....).

5.Ng5 d5 (this lad played d6-d5 a few moves later in the game.)
6.exd5 Nd4!?

And he is going into the Fritz line and White does not have c3 to
kick the Knight. Then recall I added (...but I doubt it.)

There is a smashing Fritz trap that has caught loads of players.
Here is the basic trap. White goes for the Knight fork.



But here with the Knight on c3 Black has no 9...Qe4+.
But he does instead have (with 4...d6 and 5.Nc3 thrown in)



10...Nf3+ (10..Bh3 too looks fine).

So was Chummy trying to get into this?

Plausible? No. Black was not fishing down this alley.
This trick is based on a capture on g2.
In the actual game Black missed the winning you resign now 11...Bxg2.
So it was not a sneaky but a blunder.

If he had played 11...Bxg2 you would have posted that game then
endgame crowd would have stayed in their caves and you would not
now be looking at that endgame book and having to live on beans and
toast for the next few months.

In game 6 you played 9.c3. A wasted move that could of/should have had
you resigning a few moves later.

Fear of the Doubled Pawn Syndrome.

Open that book and it will develop into a fixation that will take years,
if at all, to undo.

Anyway Nick. I cannot coach over the net.
There are no times recorded. I cannot see where you are spending your time.
I cannot hear you speak, or you to show me what your were thinking.
I need to hear 'sinking in' noises. I need arguments. It has to face to face.

I can show you what did it for me. What else can I show you?

Here:

http://www.chessedinburgh.co.uk/chandle ... ?ChandID=4

and then here.

http://www.chessedinburgh.co.uk/chandle ... ?ChandID=3

In two parts all the games from J. du Monts 200 minatures.

No notes I'm afraid. The notes are light, jolly and instructive. (and copyright) :)

Apparently you can pick the book up from a link in that thread on University Challenge.
More expense I'm afraid. Looks like it will be just toast from now on.
(anyway beans make you fart.)

If not:

Print out the games and play though them on a full board.
Honestly much more fun and (AT THIS STAGE) more beneficial than that
thing that just arrived along with the gas bill and a flier for skinny men.

Hi Richard.

Agree all players should have basic endgame knowledge but now
everything will get dropped whilst he strives to become the best
1400 engame player in the country.........forever.

"in the bye game, pointing out a four move sequence to win a pawn involving
moving the queen 3 times and ending up with the queen on an exposed square.
In many other circumstances that would be a recipe for disaster. "

A good note Richard. You are asking the questions Nick should be asking.

If Nick had said that then I would have accepted it.
It's a good solid base to work with.

It is not just a pawn. My note said Centre Pawn. (infact at one time
before I edited it said "pawn centre." but Centre Pawn is what I clearly meant.

Bad note on my part because there I assume Nick knows the importance
of centre pawns. They are not just any old pawn. Centre pawns are top dogs.
And nicking one in broad daylight is worth the trouble.
(Lasker said something like that.)

"...the queen on an exposed square. In many other circumstances that
would be a recipe for disaster."

Excellent. I wish I was coaching you.

You are correct. But OTB judgment and the ability to go against Rules
of Thumb (ROT) is a step up. When a player starts messing about in the opening.
In this case 3...f6 and 4...Nd4. Then you look for ROT breakers to whack him

I could see no way Black could take advantage of the exposed Queen
due to the pawn nick. Infact judging by the opening moves it would put
panic into the Black ranks. He can play
It was simple trick not to difficult to see, after 3...f6 White
should have been looking at what happens if Qh5+ is played.

And the Knight still has c3.

At the lower levels many games are lost due to pointless pawn moves.
Got to get him thinking he needs a very good reason for every pawn move
and then look for a reason NOT to play it.

Banging d5 was one reason. What happens if Black (as in the game) does not
take on d4. The c3 Knight moans. I will not having moaning Knights in my position.
Reason enough to leave it alone.

"End games are fun."

If you are in an endgame then you have played the opening and middle game poorly. :wink:

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: The fine form continues!

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:51 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote: At the lower levels many games are lost due to pointless pawn moves.
Got to get him thinking he needs a very good reason for every pawn move
and then look for a reason NOT to play it.
While this may be good advice in general, it's not exactly a rare event in king's pawn games for white to play c3 and d4, followed by developing the knight via d2, is it? It is, for example, the standard way of developing in the main lines of the Ruy Lopez.

Matt Fletcher
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Re: The fine form continues!

Post by Matt Fletcher » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:36 pm

Very entertaining, Geoff, and some good analysis in there too!

A simple question for you if I may - when (if ever) do you think a chess player ought to start giving endgames more than a passing look?

Paul Cooksey

Re: The fine form continues!

Post by Paul Cooksey » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:12 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:End games are fun.
I didn't read rest of Geoff's post because it looked like it was full of those pointless open game tactics that both sides can avoid by playing sensible positional chess. But he is right about endings being fun. For example, the legendary:

White to play and draw. Reti 1921

Endings are also generally believed to be educational, for example:
Vassily Smyslov wrote:(My father) instilled in me a love for so-called ‘simple’ positions, with the participation of only a few pieces. I was able to gain a deep feeling for what each piece is capable of, to sense their peculiarities, their strength and impotence in various different situations on the board, the limits of their capabilities, what they ‘like’ and what they ‘don’t like’ and how they behave… Such a ‘mutual understanding’ with the pieces enables a player to see that which often remains concealed to purely logical analysis. It is then that the innate ability of a player, which I call a sense of harmony, manifests itself.”

Richard Bates
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Re: The fine form continues!

Post by Richard Bates » Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:39 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Geoff Chandler wrote:End games are fun.
I didn't read rest of Geoff's post because it looked like it was full of those pointless open game tactics that both sides can avoid by playing sensible positional chess. But he is right about endings being fun.
No i said that :)
Geoff Chandler wrote: "End games are fun."

If you are in an endgame then you have played the opening and middle game poorly. :wink:
It is always a pleasure and a delight to introduce someone to the Catalan! :wink:

John McKenna

Re: The fine form continues!

Post by John McKenna » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:45 am

Hope Nicky doesn't think he's being doomed to play the Catalan, or is doomed unless he plays it.
I think Richard & Paul would like to educate Geoff in the niceties of grand strategic play. (Don't want to put words in Geoff's mouth but catatonia may be his pronunciation of Catalan?) Geoff, however, is pointing out that Nicky - in starting 1.e4 - is entering the school of tactical hard knocks.
Nicky, "... advice here is good, but... seems contradictory sometimes" - good, yes, but complementary would be best.

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Re: The fine form continues!

Post by Geoff Chandler » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:09 am

Hi Jack

Yes of course c2-c3 figures in KP games.
The other reason (remember two reasons for every pawn move!) for c2-c3
in the Lopez is to give to keep the Lopez Bishop on the board giving it a bolt
hole on after a6 and b5.
My Lopez b1 Knight does not moan it knows I will be giving it top priority
to go from b1-d2-f1-e3/g3 then onto f5.

Hi Matt.

"when (if ever) do you think a chess player ought to
start giving endgames more than a passing look?"

All I want Nick to do is to go though the chess childhood.
(which if everyone good is honest we all went through.)

The opening trap setting stage. The gambits galore stage.
The middle game one tracked minded attacks on the King.
The reckless pawn sac stage.
The joy of winning the first speculative piece sac game.
The spinning of a totally lost game because your opponent
has missed your last trick stage.

That wait when you have set a trap on the board and you are
on a complete high waiting for him to fall for it.
(It's often an anti-climax when he does.)

This will put some tactical teeth into his gums and going though
this phase he will find he loves and lives for chess.

Let him have chess childhood before we start giving him the
adult stuff like 'positional chess' (what ever that means)
and going into hard core ending study.

Of course he may never grow up. I never did.
But it was where I wanted to be and I never resist the call of the wild.
I love chess and I like how I play it.

Matt to answer your question.
When he starts bumping into the better players (2000+) then he will
need more than a bag or tricks and a keen alert eye.
He will need to improve in all departments especially the ending.
(then he can dust of that Silman book and read the chapters that take
him beyond basic endings.)

It may take some convincing. There are 100's of chess kids who never grew up.
Every club has at least one. Chess Peter Pan's.
But we love our chess and live in a fairy land where every now
and then the dream comes true and we slay a dragon.

Hi Paul.

"I didn't read rest of Geoff's post because it looked like it was full of those pointless
open game tactics that both sides can avoid by playing sensible positional chess."

I don't care if you never read it but "pointless open game tactics"

Paul it is stuff he needs to know. And you know it's not 'pointless'.

Were the hours you put in studying tactics that you obviosly did pointless?
Don't you need tactics anymore?

Or did the ability you have to pick the bones out of this position. (Black to play)



Come naturally to you without any tactical training?

At the moment Nick would either defend f7 with Rf8 or take the c1 Rook.
Both for tactical reason are not as good as the active and
OTB problem setting move you played. 22....Rcd8.

Getting him to take on f7 with the Queen instead of the Bishop.
Now has he won a pawn or has he opened the f-file for you?
It's this weighing up the tactics in postions like this I think
Nick should attempt to master first rather than become an endgame monkey.

Let us see what happened?

Chris Beaumont (2328) Paul Cooksey (2258) 4NCL 2008
(grades given at date of game)


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Re: The fine form continues!

Post by Nicky Chorley » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:33 am

Hi Geoff,

I had some time to read through your first post of yesterday during some downtime at work. First of all, I'm no longer a student; I've been employed as a software engineer since January :). Also, while PhD studentships don't pay a great deal, I certainly wasn't struggling.

There's a lot of stuff in your post and I'm having difficulty trying to find the important bits; I don't do well with information overload :(. As such, I'll just ask some specific questions to try and get to the most important things:

You suggest to prepare lines against openings I'm likely to face. How do I choose (as in, how do I decide for or against a particular line?)? Is there a website that gives a good overview of the most common openings, their ideas and variations? I have a copy of each of the first two volumes of Watson's "Mastering the Chess Openings" but haven't used them much. There's a lot of stuff on pawn structures and stuff in the first few chapters that's quite tough to understand. What do I do against openings I haven't seen before? Given that I generally don't know my opponents ahead of time, this is likely. In one game before Christmas, my opponent played the King's Gambit and I didn't know what to do there, so I just tried to get my pieces out. The position was very cramped, though.

Here's what I have right now, as White:

Sicilian:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxc4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be2 e5 7. Nb3 Be7 8. O-O O-O 9. Be3 Be6 10. Qd2

I see the Sicilian quite often. From the little reading I've done (Wikipedia and probably elsewhere), I've seen that 6. Be2 isn't particularly ambitious. However, I've seen that in the other lines, White castles queenside and plays f4 I think. Our Italian friend above pointed out that it's more common to castle kingside. Since I don't know generally when one would choose to castle queenside, I just develop my kingside pieces first and castle. Perhaps with both sides castling on opposite sides in the Sicilian, they can hope to attack the opposing king without exposing their own.

French:

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5

I've seen the French just twice in tournament games and don't really know what to do with the positions. I play e5 there because I don't want the knight and bishop exchanged and then to lose a pawn. Maybe it's possible to get it back later on, but obviously I don't know.

Caro-Kann:

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5. Ng3 Bg6

I've seen this just once, in my first league game this season. I didn't know anything about it before the game, so the moves played were just natural ones. I did look at the opening a bit afterwards and it seems that White plays h4 and the light-squared bishops are exchanged fairly early on. I of course did not know this and played Be2 in my game.

You also mentioned coaching. I wasn't sure if that was to suggest I should get some, but in any case I agree that it's difficult to do over a forum. I had hoped to find someone to help me out at my club, but no such luck.

I haven't had a chance to play through any games yet. The cat is no longer using my desk as a sleeping place, so my board can be set up again :).

Next week, I intended to start reading books on endings, as well as the planning stuff (Stean's "Simple Chess" is what I have) and continue with tactics (I tend to do problems at chesstempo.com daily, but haven't had much time this week), but I'm completely confused now. Could someone please help me to decide which are the most important things to work on?

Also, John, I agree, complementary advice would be better :).

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