Online Cheats

[andrew martin]

I would just like to apply this argument to correspondance/email chess. Every single player who uses an engine to help them choose moves in correspondance chess is a cheat. Yes, that means 99% of players.Thus the game these days is almost a complete waste of time. It's actually a kind of disease, because the few players who don't get help in this manner are at a massive disadvantage and so the cheating becomes self-replicating. Cheat to survive.

There is only one real answer. DONT PLAY CORRESPONDANCE CHESS. It has just become an ego trip for the cheats.

Online chess is different; I wouldn't say,cheating is widespread; there are only a few.

[Greg Breed]

...what I meant was that people play on a desktop, but replicate the game on a laptop alongside with an engine running.

ICC, for example, reckon that their Spyware (which you load when you join the site) can catch you if you run an engine on your desktop whilst playing. Even then, I guess there have to be quite a lot of complaints to ICC from opponents.

I was under the impression that the software used by online chess portals to check for cheaters actually checks the moves made against a profile for "computer moves"... (or something like that) ...Thereby negating the use of a separate computer as it checks the moves not the applications running on your computer.

[Laurie Roberts]

I'd be interested to know where IM Martin gets his 99% figure from? There are sites like redhotpawn.com which forbid the use of engines and the community self polices. Sure, some people probably abuse this but where on earth IM Martin gets his 99% figure from I don't know.

How does he know it's not 9%, 20%, 26%, 40%?

Correspondence chess is alive and well and, in my view, a great way to play considered chess when it's hard to get 5 hours in a row to play over-the-board. Remarks like those of IM Martin are very unhelpful.

[Jonathan Bryant]

I play at redhotpawn.com and to be fair HUGE numbers of players use computers, many of whom are banned.

I'd guess that up to half of the top 30 players when I joined a year ago have subsequently been banned. I know for sure that 50% of my losses have been against players subsequently banned.

That doesn't mean there's no reason to play there - i for one enjoy it and get a lot out of it - but the idea that computer use during correspondence/email games can be effectively policed (by the users themselves or otherwise) is rather fanciful I think.

[Laurie Roberts]

I am a club level player and at my rating level I suspect very few people I play against cheat as, if they did, they'd be rated much much higher

[andrew martin]

Hi Laurie,

I am sorry if you find the figure of 99% an exaggeration, but I am afraid it is true. I simply conducted a poll among my many chess-playing friends and they ALL ( 100%) use engines to play correspondance with ( from GM's down to players graded under 100).

I am very happy if you enjoy this form of chess and please carry on with it if this is what you like.

Andrew

[JustinHorton]

"Asking your friends" is useful but it's some way short of a polling method that would allow us to declare something "true".

[JustinHorton]

Every single player who uses an engine to help them choose moves in correspondence chess is a cheat.

Incidentally, this is some way short of "true" as well. In some organisations it is prohibited: in others it is not. For instance, in IECC, there is this rule (my italics and my bold):

Any other form of assistance, either from another person or using chess engines within chess programs to make
moves during the course of a game, is prohibited.

In IECG, however, they are not.

Using the term "cheat" to describe somebody who plays within the rules and within the accepted ethical standards of an organisation (for insatnce, Ivár Bern) is, to put it mildly, pushing one's luck.

[Laurie Roberts]

Exactly: polls are not statistically significant if they are from a small sample.

And the question has to be; "Do you use engines in tournaments/on servers that prohibit their use"

People are allowed to use engines on FICGS too for example

[andrew martin]

Laurie and Justin, if you enjoy this form of chess,by all means carry on playing it. But can I ask you: have you EVER used an engine to assist your play in correspondance or email chess?

[JustinHorton]

1) what would be your reason for asking?

2) do you intend to distinguish between competitions in which it is permitted and competitions in which it is not?

[Laurie Roberts]

Andrew

No, I have never used an engine in correspondence chess. Have you?

[Ben Purton]

I rarely read this forum as it see's not much action. But I felt it right to defend the person your are cursing at the start of this thread. I know it must be Simon , as he played in British and is well known for being very very strong online.

Can you answer me this, how can he be a 2400 bullet player, if you think he can input moves in to a computer and be as strong as bullet as he is, your an idiot, one minute chess its too differcult to cheat online im afraid so the true test is 1-3 minute, hence why alot of people cheat in Dos Herm , "So your bit of gossip" is gossip, a fact is and there is no gossip in this that youve slandered someone.

Here are some freindly ICC facts: ICC do track computers striaght away, My friend who I live with Gawain Jones GM, was accused of cheating on grounds of he had Rybka going through a position of a OTB game whilst playing ICC, he had to clarify this with ICC(Freebird admin) and was found innocent when ran against there programme.

Alexandra Kosteniuk who I think is now world womens champion was kicked out of Dos H(the richest online chess tourn) for having a computer running in the background. This is not consistant proof but is not allowed.

Simon is a very strong and inconsistant player OTB and a very very good blitz player otb, he will lose to a 140 then beat a 200 , this is just how it is, if your not referring to him then fine, but dont be a old women in your gossip.

I think you wont claim who it is, but he is below 2000 FIDE and very very strong online, but there are online specialists aswell as blitz specialists, one of the strongest ICC blitz players who died from Russia, was considered in the top 5 blitz players in the world, yet was "only" around 2400 FIDE.


So if your going to "accuse" people , then one state who, because a cheats a cheat. Dont gossip , get a grip and learn about the Idea behind it first.

Ben

[Steve Collyer]

Well Ben, firstly it isn't Simon.

Secondly I know exactly who it is who got banned & also their username on RHP where they were rated over 2400. Anyone with half a brain could have worked out this user's real name (it was an anagram of his username!) and also the fact that they played, with a very poor result, at Liverpool earlier this year, using virtually the same repertoire as the rocket-propelled one they used on RHP but with very much worse results and also much worse engine move match-ups!

The fellow played on RHP with higher than 85-90% top-3 choice move engine matches over time once the games had gone out of book. There were also engine-like moves in many of his his CC games - one example springs to mind of a game he won where he allowed a highly-rated opponent - also later banned for engine use - to gain a second queen several moves ahead of his own promotion in an amazing(!) piece of calculation that would have baffled Morphy, Fischer, Kasparov etc...

Thirdly I have no evidence of any online blitz by this player, only an OTB rating of around 2000 (ECF 160 or so) and a couple of CC sites where he managed 2300-2400.

Apart from these points, I largely agree with what you posted above.

[Tryfon Gavriel]

I would just like to apply this argument to correspondance/email chess. Every single player who uses an engine to help them choose moves in correspondance chess is a cheat. Yes, that means 99% of players.Thus the game these days is almost a complete waste of time. It's actually a kind of disease, because the few players who don't get help in this manner are at a massive disadvantage and so the cheating becomes self-replicating. Cheat to survive.

There is only one real answer. DONT PLAY CORRESPONDANCE CHESS. It has just become an ego trip for the cheats.

Online chess is different; I wouldn't say,cheating is widespread; there are only a few.

I have the greatest respect for you Andrew - honestly. I really appreciated for example your daily bulletins at the British. Keep up the good work!

However if may be so bold as to try and qualify some of the above comments you made - it really depends on the correspondence chess organisation if engine usage is "cheating" or not. For example in the ICCF and IECG, engine usage is permitted. It is therefore not against the rules - and therefore technically not "cheating".

On most non-official correspondence chess servers, there is in the terms and conditions about not using engines - and some sites do even have public ban lists of people banned. On such sites, often there is a "real time" rating - which means rating adjustment after each game. This makes it easy to get quite a reliable guide to engine abusers or not.

For example on my site - letsplaychess.com - if you play people below 2300, it is highly unlikely they are engine abusers. You can expect a good game. You can also inspect their game histories, etc, or even organise your own private tournament just with your trusted friends, etc.

Correspondence chess as a whole has I believe benefited my OTB chess much more than simply playing blitz on the ICC, and other blitz sites. It does encourage a more scientific rigorous treatment of game positions - and not just playing on intuition. Also it does permit the usage of opening books - so can be good for actively learning opening theory in the context of games you are currenly involved in. This use of opening books, and the time for research, makes correspondence chess in my view a great way to improve one's chess understanding and OTB results.

Personally I came 2nd= at Southend earlier in the year, and qualified for the British championship for the first time in my life. I think part of my recent OTB good results has been less blitz chess on the ICC, and more correspondence style chess. On the servers with real time ratings, if you choose your opponents below a certain rating, you can often avoid 95% of engine cheats.

Best wishes
Tryfon Gavriel