Half-point bye ... Why ?

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Sabrina Chevannes
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Re: Half-point bye ... Why ?

Post by Sabrina Chevannes » Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:56 pm

There have been many people who have been disadvantaged by the half point bye too I am sure. They take a half point bye because they cannot make the Friday round and then win 4/4 and miss out on a bigger prize money because they are only joint first and arguably they could have got the full 5 points. So they may feel cheated and would be doubly unimpressed if their prize money were reduced. However, they may not have played in the tournament full stop if they couldn't get the half point bye so it works both ways.

I personally think that how the system is is fine. It is those who receive full point byes during tournaments and then go on to win prizes who cause an issue.

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Peter D Williams
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Re: Half-point bye ... Why ?

Post by Peter D Williams » Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:02 pm

If you want to win the chess tournament then taking a half point bye is no good because others will be a half point ahead! You can still win but it makes it a little harder. I do not think we should give out extra prize money to people who play in all the rounds. Some people may want to take a bye for travel reason or because there tired. It allows more people to take part in an event if you allow half point byes.
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Brendan O'Gorman
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Re: Half-point bye ... Why ?

Post by Brendan O'Gorman » Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:06 pm

Perhaps restaurants should add an extra service charge for those customers showing a lack of "support" by ordering two courses instead of three? :wink:

Ian Thompson
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Re: Half-point bye ... Why ?

Post by Ian Thompson » Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:38 pm

Sabrina Chevannes wrote:It is those who receive full point byes during tournaments and then go on to win prizes who cause an issue.
I don't see how that can ever be down to the player. If it's down to anyone, it would be the organiser. Last time I received a full point bye it was because the organiser paired me against someone who was taking a half-point bye. :roll: He only realised what he'd done about 30 minutes after the round started. I see no issue with my subsequent victory in the tournament. :D

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Lee Bullock
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Re: Half-point bye ... Why ?

Post by Lee Bullock » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:30 pm

I am surprised that some people here don't see the advantage a 1st round bye can be. You avoid the people on 100% who played the 1st round. This means you may avoid someone you would of been beaten by, therefore only getting 4/5 rather than 4.5/5 if you took bye first round then won next 4 avoiding people on 100%. Of course if you are the favorite for an event a bye may cost you the outright winner prize but for some players who may want to avoid the 100% pack it can be advantageous.

Also I am confused by some saying a 3 round day would be a problem? Surely you can still take a bye in round 1 or 3 if there is any issue with tiredness etc.

I myself don't take a bye for any tactical reasons. I love chess and love playing as many rounds as possible and don't feel to bad on a 3 game day. I did find tho that when I drew my first game in St Albans a field of 50 I think it was I did avoid all the 100% players and went on to win my next 4 getting 4.5 and joint winner. If I had won my first game I could of been paired with someone who then beat me and I finish on 4, therefore losing the tournament. especially if theirs a very strong Shark in the u120 this year lol. ;)

Anyway my earlier opinion that players who play all 5 rounds get a slight edge on winnings if people are on the same points still stands. I think this is a good idea and doesn't effect anyone as I am sure the players who take that bye 1st round would not begrudge the players playing in all 5 rounds. Plus starting on 0.5 can (not always) give you an easier route to 4.5.
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Mick Norris
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Re: Half-point bye ... Why ?

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:36 pm

Brendan O'Gorman wrote:Perhaps restaurants should add an extra service charge for those customers showing a lack of "support" by ordering two courses instead of three? :wink:
:lol:
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Peter Ackley
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Re: Half-point bye ... Why ?

Post by Peter Ackley » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:04 pm

On paper there may be an arguable minute benefit to a bye however if a player takes one to improve their chances it does make the large assumption that they are so strong that they will win all their remaining games - in which case they may well have played the 'bye round' as well. Having taken a bye a player can afford to drop fewer points, cannot afford to take a bye later in an event, has increased their chance of sharing a prize they may have won outright...etc.

Unless it is a very large tournament, you are also not guaranteed to avoid the top seeds; rather the player is more likely to end up playing members of the 'leading pack', but with fewer points! This is, of course, assuming that a player's intention is to avoid the top players. What about those who have entered to play strong players but have ended up not being able to challenge them?

I rarely take byes in tournaments - and if I do it's not to try and improve my chances. Off the top of my head:
-Sunday Rapidplay - first train got in 10:20, first round started 10:00
-Sunday Rapidplay - bus delayed, missed cut-off time for first round
-Weekend congress - my lift wanted a bye
-Weekend congress - my car wouldn't start
-Evening tournament - other commitments

I've already made my 'sacrifice', both in the number of games I will get and also in my total possible score. I don't expect to be financially penalised if I play better than other players in my remaining games.

Of course if you really wish to reduce prizes by a percentage (to take into account the 'benefit' of the bye) I'm sure you won't mind reducing entry fees by the same percentage (whether or not any money is won) to take into account the fact that a player hasn't been there for every game...

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Half-point bye ... Why ?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:16 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Sabrina Chevannes wrote:It is those who receive full point byes during tournaments and then go on to win prizes who cause an issue.
I don't see how that can ever be down to the player. If it's down to anyone, it would be the organiser. Last time I received a full point bye it was because the organiser paired me against someone who was taking a half-point bye. :roll: He only realised what he'd done about 30 minutes after the round started. I see no issue with my subsequent victory in the tournament. :D
I guess it depends which pairing system you use. Under FIDE pairings, the bye (and downfloat) is the bottom seed. E.g. in a 21-player event, PIN 21 gets the bye in round 1. Using CAA pairings, the median gets the bye in round 1, i.e. PIN 11. Using the pairing system taught by the CAA, you're more likely to get a player winning a prize who has been given a full point bye in an earlier round.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Half-point bye ... Why ?

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:22 pm

Lee Bullock wrote:I am surprised that some people here don't see the advantage a 1st round bye can be. You avoid the people on 100% who played the 1st round. This means you may avoid someone you would of been beaten by, therefore only getting 4/5 rather than 4.5/5 if you took bye first round then won next 4 avoiding people on 100%. Of course if you are the favorite for an event a bye may cost you the outright winner prize but for some players who may want to avoid the 100% pack it can be advantageous.
I once joint-won a tournament where this happened in reverse. The top five seeds were James and Charles Cobb, Andrew Greet, Tyson Mordue and me. The first three all took half-point byes in round one, and Tyson could only draw his game. I won my first round game and then got a relatively easy ride to 4/4 by staying ahead of the other seeds, while Mordue lost to one of the other seeds in round 3 and Greet did likewise in round 4. In the last round, I drew with Charles Cobb and James Cobb won to catch up with me.

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Lee Bullock
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Re: Half-point bye ... Why ?

Post by Lee Bullock » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:36 am

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Lee Bullock wrote:I am surprised that some people here don't see the advantage a 1st round bye can be. You avoid the people on 100% who played the 1st round. This means you may avoid someone you would of been beaten by, therefore only getting 4/5 rather than 4.5/5 if you took bye first round then won next 4 avoiding people on 100%. Of course if you are the favorite for an event a bye may cost you the outright winner prize but for some players who may want to avoid the 100% pack it can be advantageous.
I once joint-won a tournament where this happened in reverse. The top five seeds were James and Charles Cobb, Andrew Greet, Tyson Mordue and me. The first three all took half-point byes in round one, and Tyson could only draw his game. I won my first round game and then got a relatively easy ride to 4/4 by staying ahead of the other seeds, while Mordue lost to one of the other seeds in round 3 and Greet did likewise in round 4. In the last round, I drew with Charles Cobb and James Cobb won to catch up with me.
Haha ;) Of course if you see all the top seeds taking a bye first round and your just behind that then make sure you make the first round and win ;)
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Giulio Simeone
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Re: Half-point bye ... Why ?

Post by Giulio Simeone » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:45 am

Alan Burke wrote:
Indeed, it is sometimes beneficial for players to only gain a half-point in the first round so that they can then go through the tournament just 'off the pace' from the leaders and so maybe not have to play them until it might become absolutely necessary. There are occasions where a player took a half-point bye in Round 1 and ended up as joint winner of the tournament without actually playing either the co-winner nor the players who came third, fourth or fifth - all of whom played the full five rounds of the competition.
Lee Bullock wrote:
I am surprised that some people here don't see the advantage a 1st round bye can be. You avoid the people on 100% who played the 1st round. This means you may avoid someone you would of been beaten by, therefore only getting 4/5 rather than 4.5/5 if you took bye first round then won next 4 avoiding people on 100%. Of course if you are the favorite for an event a bye may cost you the outright winner prize but for some players who may want to avoid the 100% pack it can be advantageous.
Alan, Lee, do you realize that with your statements you are criticising not the 1st round bye in itself, but the whole Swiss System? I mean, suppose that you stop to give the 1st round bye, and that I'm a strong master that is convinced that starting the tournament with an half point will give me advantage. On the first round, as usual, I'm paired with a 1800 - 1900 player: to his surprise and joy, after 8 moves I offer him a draw, that he accepts without thinking a second about it. Despite the fact that they didn't give me the 1st round bye, I'm trying to exploit the incongruence of the rules exactly in the same way you described.

Therefore, you have to admit that the problem is not the 1st round bye, which in itself can be an useful tool for the "working class", for kids who go to sleep early and for many other people, but the whole Swiss System!! I don't know why in chess, with a very few exceptions, they always use that system which, as far as I know, isn't used in any other game or sport. When you win, you are "punished" by having to face a stronger opponent, when you lose, you are "rewarded": as a result we have that the final ranking will be much more balanced that it should be, and that even weak players are able to rank well if they are lucky. A much smarter system is used in the Wijk an Zee tournaments, where the players are divided according to their rating and play many all-play-all round robin tournaments. This, incidentally, implies that every player faces opponents more or less of his level, and that there are no "too easy" or "too difficult" games. With that formula, a strong player that takes the 1st round bye simply remains an half point behind :-)

William Metcalfe
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Re: Half-point bye ... Why ?

Post by William Metcalfe » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:28 am

The prize money at the York congress is done on points scored i think it was £300 for 5 points £200 for 4.5 and £100 for 4 points those figures might be wrong but you get the idea.
I am playing the Leeds congress this weekend its imposable for me to play the Friday night game i am getting a train from Darlington to Leeds on Sat morning.So if i managed to get 4.5 points and win the section why should i be penalised i am making a lot of effort to play the event as its a new congress and i want to support it.
I am speaking here for myself and not the NCCU which i am now president of

Trefor Owens
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Re: Half-point bye ... Why ?

Post by Trefor Owens » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:49 am

The main reason that I don't play more weekend events is the difficulty of the Friday night round; Friday games may be 'normal' for students, the retired, professional players and anyone else not stuck in a Dolly Parton syndrome, but for the rest of us, unless the venue is close to the office, it means taking time off work, and even if the venue is within driving distance, which is rare for us south of London, playing a 3 hour+ game after a day at work is less than ideal. So does a first round bye give an advantage? absolutely not, it merely gives a lot of people a chance to play in an event that would otherwise be unattractive, yes we know that we will be giving the leaders a half point head start but we can enjoy some good competitive chess without worrying about Friday rush hour traffic or bad tempered bosses.

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Lee Bullock
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Re: Half-point bye ... Why ?

Post by Lee Bullock » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:13 pm

Trefor Owens wrote:The main reason that I don't play more weekend events is the difficulty of the Friday night round; Friday games may be 'normal' for students, the retired, professional players and anyone else not stuck in a Dolly Parton syndrome, but for the rest of us, unless the venue is close to the office, it means taking time off work, and even if the venue is within driving distance, which is rare for us south of London, playing a 3 hour+ game after a day at work is less than ideal. So does a first round bye give an advantage? absolutely not, it merely gives a lot of people a chance to play in an event that would otherwise be unattractive, yes we know that we will be giving the leaders a half point head start but we can enjoy some good competitive chess without worrying about Friday rush hour traffic or bad tempered bosses.

Cheers
Trefor
Trefor it can give an advantage but I am not saying the bye system should be scrapped. I think its fine as it is but I think people who do play all rounds should get minimal extra prize money. Or as some have said points for prizes is also a good idea. I dont think the bye system should ever be changed for the reasons given already. But maybe rather than these players who take byes first round being paired with people on the same points why not pair them as on 1 point instead? And if they win 2nd round pair them v people on 2 points. This way you would not get the avoiding 100% people. Interesting idea anyway.

Maybe for the 2nd round you could pair them v other 0.5 players. But if they then win pair them with players who are also on 100%. What do people think of this?
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Andrew Camp
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Re: Half-point bye ... Why ?

Post by Andrew Camp » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:52 pm

As I said, it's very easy to take this stance when you live in an area where you have a choice of congresses every weekend and can spend the nights in your own home.

When you have to travel at least two hours and often more AFTER work on a Friday, it's easier to see the other view.
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