Female ECF Council/ Board

[John McKenna]

Sorry, David, but I think you are not right about the inherent ability of the female brain to match that of the male except in a few cases. To me it is a matter of conditioning - too many women are beaten down before they get started.

[Alex Holowczak]

Maybe the real reason for this is social.

It's quite normal for most children of the 11-18 age group to socialise with people of their own sex. I went to a mixed secondary school, but even there, the boys and girls tended to more or less separate themselves into subgroups.

If this happens with chess too, then the boys of that age can form a subgroup, but the girls won't, because there may well be no one to form the group with. So then when you go away to a tournament, you exist in isolation of everyone else. This won't be the sort of thing that'll get people coming back.

[David Shepherd]

I wasn't trying to say that the males or females had more inherent ability. I suspect that they have slightly different abilities, whether that makes either better or worse I have no idea.

[Michele Clack]

If more girls were playing chess then those girls would have some others to form a sub-group with! Your argument might explain why the last few girls left playing might give up but not why there are less in the first place.

[Andrew Camp]

I once sat next to a board that had an adult female player and a male youth who proceeded to verbally belittle her prior to the start of the game. I guess it was his way of psyching himself up and his opponent down. The thing is it may not have been sexist intimidation since I already had the impression it could have been tried on any of his opponents that he considered fair game. The woman in question did not respond to it, as far as I remember, but lost the game. The good thing is she continues to play.

I trust you took him outside and delivered a firm slap about his head.

[Neill Cooper]

Look at The UK Chess Challenge and the % of female players that take part, then look at the number of female players over 16 playing club chess.

I think the fall off is between ages 12 and 16. Whilst a reduced number of boys of all abilities keep on playing at secondary school, many of the girls still playing are strong. Just look at Megafinal results - a slightly extreme case was the Surrey U14/U13 section where there were 3 girls taking part and they came 1st, 2nd and 25th. Boys continue to play as a social activity but not many girls do. I think this effect can partly be overcome by encouraging girls schools to have chess teams.

[Krishna Shiatis]

Maybe the real reason for this is social.

It's quite normal for most children of the 11-18 age group to socialise with people of their own sex. I went to a mixed secondary school, but even there, the boys and girls tended to more or less separate themselves into subgroups.

If this happens with chess too, then the boys of that age can form a subgroup, but the girls won't, because there may well be no one to form the group with. So then when you go away to a tournament, you exist in isolation of everyone else. This won't be the sort of thing that'll get people coming back.

I agree. I think that this social thing is definitely a factor.

We do kind of use this to our advantage with our Academy. We have several all boys schools and one all girls school nearby and some of the children come in order to see each other. It is all above board and very sweet. It does keep all of them keen with the chess.

I am not sure how one might use this to encourage more participation nationally, but if one did target the girls schools/boys schools as a starting point, we might find that we have a stronger uptake.

Also, then they can attend tournaments together and so they will feel more comfortable.

Just a suggestion.

[David Shepherd]

I just checked the results for the most recent U10 tounament local to me. Of the top 12 players 2 were girls, Of the bottom 12 players 5 were girls. It was just a random tournament. My guess is that you will find at least one of the top 2 still playing as a teenager but none of the bottom 5.

[Michele Clack]

It's possible that the average scores for those abilities that make a good chess player are lower for women than men. However, I would be surprised if any difference was large. Certainly not large enough to explain how few women play chess.

[Krishna Shiatis]

.... I think this effect can partly be overcome by encouraging girls schools to have chess teams.

Hi Neill,

Great minds think alike! Our postings went out within two minutes of each other...

Kind regards,

K

[David Shepherd]

I think that seperate girls and boys prizes are a good idea say medals for the top 5 boys and top 5 girls. What happens in some tournaments is that you get a prize for the top girl, but that tends to go to the same one or two players all the time who probably need the reward/incentive less than some of the players lower down.

[David Shepherd]

It's possible that the average scores for those abilities that make a good chess player are lower for women than men. However, I would be surprised if any difference was large. Certainly not large enough to explain how few women play chess.

I suspect you are right also it would be interesting to know how the abilities relate to the scores. For example a girl with a score of 1 may have more natural ability than a boy with a score of 3, but she only scores 1 because of factors such as playing less, not being pushed by her parents, having no role models, having a less aggressive approach to the game, viewing it as essentially a boys game ......

Also I would be interested to know the male/female split of chess teachers and whether there is and difference in the perfomance of girls taught by females compared to males.

[John McKenna]

Thanks to David for clarifying his position - there exists a degree of uncertainty about mental ability but I feel in a more equal society there would be little gender bias.
Andrew wrote - I trust you took him outside and delivered a firm slap about the head. Please stop being a devils advocate for the old school methods, Andrew. Put yourself in my seat - the round is about to start and you (and others) overhear what I recounted, it's over in a flash and it's not a chessboxing event.

[Michele Clack]

One thing that is interesting is that we had a new female player last season from an Eastern European country. She was taken aback to discover that in England she would be expected to play almost exclusively in mixed events as where she came from she played mostly in all female events. She found this a bit unnerving, despite being a strong personality, but got used to it eventually. Where she comes from a lot more women play chess. The other interesting thing was that most junior chess players in her country had the opportunity to receive coaching from grandmasters!

[Alex Holowczak]

The other interesting thing was that most junior chess players in her country had the opportunity to receive coaching from grandmasters!

In Eastern Europe, many GMs would be employed by their national federation. Their job might be to play in certain tournaments (like the Olympiad), or to appear at certain coaching events. This can be afforded by having large sponsorship or government funding, but it's not a luxury that can be afforded in England these days.