British Championships 2012 - Games

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Jonathan Bryant
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Games

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:37 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote: I understood the rule of thumb to be that connected pawns needed to be moderately well advanced for black to have difficulty holding. In my defence so did Tarrasch when I looked it up later....
To be fair to Siegbert, he did come up with a study showing the right way to defend was with the bishop in front of the pawns not behind.

I'm also, of course, astonished that the position after the queen swap isn't a draw.

Austin Elliott wrote: Do I gather from what Simon Williams and others have posted that Gordon-Harvey is all GM opening prep?
Yes, all know theory. Not just in terms of the moves but in terms of the principles of the Classical Dutch too. 7 ... a5 is one of the standard ideas Black has (the others being 7 ... Qe8 and 7 ... Ne4).

Up to ... fxe4 has all been played before. Probably further.


The thing is, when you play Black in the Dutch you really want to be aiming to get ... e5 in when you can. Especially so when White has played e2-e4. With the White queen on c2 instead of d3 the line works fine for Black. With the a-pawn back on a7 and the White rook on f1, the line works fine for Black. It's just unfortunate that in this specific position Black's 'standard plan' doesn't work.

I suppose the fact that Black is doing everything he should be going in the Classical Dutch is one of the main reasons why this - frankly not too difficult to spot once you know it's there - line was overlooked for so long. (Another is probably that Qc2 feels a bunch more natural than Qd3).

Don't forget the proper Dutch expert played 7 ... a5 countless times without stumbling into this line.
Last edited by Jonathan Bryant on Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Games

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:40 pm

Marcus Harvey doesn't seem too bothered at being three pawns down for nothing v Stephen Gordon ..

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JustinHorton
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Games

Post by JustinHorton » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:45 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote: With the White queen on c2 instead of d3 the line works fine for Black.
Am I right in recalling that this was not Jonathan Rogers' opinion in Kingpin?
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Jonathan Bryant
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Games

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:45 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:Marcus Harvey doesn't seem too bothered at being three pawns down for nothing v Stephen Gordon ..
No sooner said than ...

(btw, Jonathan, I added a reference to your queen v pawn on the 7th ending against Nick Pert in the British a few years back [2006?] to my blog post from the other day)

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Games

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:47 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Jonathan Bryant wrote: With the White queen on c2 instead of d3 the line works fine for Black.
Am I right in recalling that this was not Jonathan Rogers' opinion in Kingpin?

Well, when I say "fine", I mean it doesn't lose a pawn instantly as having the queen on d3 does. Of course, I would defer to the other Jonathan in terms of objective assessment of this (or any other) position.

Paul Cooksey

Re: British Championships 2012 - Games

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:53 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:To be fair to Siegbert, he did come up with a study showing the right way to defend was with the bishop in front of the pawns not behind.
But to be unfair to him, and to continue my slightly desperate attempts to pretend a completely wrong snap judgement was in some way justified, his study has the pawns advanced. The game yesterday is making me wonder if a study with both pawns unmoved might be possible, which would be even more impressive.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Games

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:55 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Jonathan Bryant wrote: With the White queen on c2 instead of d3 the line works fine for Black.
Am I right in recalling that this was not Jonathan Rogers' opinion in Kingpin?
I think we are getting our lines mixed up. I don't remember writing much about 7 ...a5 other than to explain why the simple 8.b3 is good.

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JustinHorton
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Games

Post by JustinHorton » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:59 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:I think we are getting our lines mixed up.
Well I am, anyway.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Paul Cooksey

Re: British Championships 2012 - Games

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:05 pm

Stating the painfully obvious, damaged pawns around your king have proved to be a serious worry when playing Gawain Jones. I think he is starting to look seriously better against Turner.

Michael Bennett
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Games

Post by Michael Bennett » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:08 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:The game yesterday is making me wonder if a study with both pawns unmoved might be possible, which would be even more impressive.
100 Engames You Must know has a position like this, which he says is a win for White:

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Jonathan Rogers
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Games

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:12 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Jonathan Rogers wrote:I think we are getting our lines mixed up.
Well I am, anyway.
In my original response (never posted) so did I!

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Re: British Championships 2012 - Games

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:13 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:Stating the painfully obvious, damaged pawns around your king have proved to be a serious worry when playing Gawain Jones. I think he is starting to look seriously better against Turner.
he must watch out for Rf6 Rxd3 Qxd3 Qe5

Paul Cooksey

Re: British Championships 2012 - Games

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:16 pm

Michael Bennett wrote:
Paul Cooksey wrote:The game yesterday is making me wonder if a study with both pawns unmoved might be possible, which would be even more impressive.
100 Engames You Must know has a position like this, which he says is a win for White:
Find some way to put whites king on a bad square too, and I'll hail you as a genius :)

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Re: British Championships 2012 - Games

Post by Michael Bennett » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:28 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Michael Bennett wrote:
Paul Cooksey wrote:The game yesterday is making me wonder if a study with both pawns unmoved might be possible, which would be even more impressive.
100 Engames You Must know has a position like this, which he says is a win for White:
Find some way to put whites king on a bad square too, and I'll hail you as a genius :)
Just checked it with tablebase at http://www.shredderchess.com/online-che ... abase.html and the best they can do for a win is WK on g3, c4 or c7 :(
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JustinHorton
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Re: British Championships 2012 - Games

Post by JustinHorton » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:49 pm

Houska-Arkell develops an online problem as an impossible 43.Qf8 appears.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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