How many players have defected since the membership change?

[Sean Hewitt]

Sean, please specify the benefits that players get from the ECF.

Andy - foreign players don't get any. What benefits do Scottish players get from Chess Scotland?

[Sean Hewitt]

It seems to me that organisers, particularly Congresses derive benefit from the ECF's existence. It would hardly be possible to run Congresses in their current form without a reliable grading list.

It would be dead easy.

... but a disadvantage that members of chess clubs who were part of county associations were expected to carry the burden of financing the BCF.

I can see that. But congress players are now required to pay more than members of local clubs who only play local league chess, so I don't understand the comparison to a time when that wasn't the case.

[Roger de Coverly]

[
Andy - foreign players don't get any. What benefits do Scottish players get from Chess Scotland?

A hard line approach to membership as applied in the USCF would demand that Scottish, Welsh and Irish players became ECF members in order to participate in English Congresses. It's already required, in economic terms, for them to pay a lump sum to the ECF to participate in English "domestic" events.

It's not compulsory to join Chess Scotland to participate in any Scottish event, including FIDE rated events. I'll leave it to Chess Scotland's representatives to outline the benefits.

[Roger de Coverly]

It would be dead easy.

FIDE ratings rely on the existence of the ECF as national affiliate and only around 10 to 15% of all players have ratings.

But congress players are now required to pay more than members of local clubs who only play local league chess, so I don't understand the comparison to a time when that wasn't the case.

That's a hard won concession, mostly offered to secure a majority vote. There's the example of the Eddie event to illustrate that the rule doesn't always apply.

What of the voices in ECF Council and for that matter the board who would "simplify" the scheme? The ECF shoots itself in the foot with regard to fund raising, if it rules out a levy on Congresses.

[Sean Hewitt]

The ECF shoots itself in the foot with regard to fund raising, if it rules out a levy on Congresses.

Not at all, once you realise that the only people around to fund the ECF are the players. Congresses (and leagues for that matter) are merely tax collectors.

[Roger de Coverly]

Not at all, once you realise that the only people around to fund the ECF are the players. Congresses (and leagues for that matter) are merely tax collectors.

I don't accept the negative of "only". What about sponsorship? If a sponsor is prepared to support an event why shouldn't the ECF get a cut, everyone else involved with the organisation does? Even leagues have alternative fund raising potentially available.

Unlike some countries that could be named, British events bundled with hotel facilities are very good at passing on accommodation discounts to participants. It is however another source of funding.

[Andy McCulloch]

Sean, please specify the benefits that players get from the ECF.

Andy - foreign players don't get any. What benefits do Scottish players get from Chess Scotland?

Sean, your trite dismissal of the viewpoint of anyone who has the temerity to disagree with you is ,to say the least, quite astounding.

Did you bother to check my status? Did you check the membership list? If not, why not?

How did you come to the conclusion that I was 'foreign' ? Are Scots that different? By the way. my mother was English, born in Staffordshire, at Fole Bank near Uttoxeter. So exactly how 'foreign' am I? More than half of my relations are English, and a few of the Scots are now resident in 'foreign' lands.
Sorry, but your reaction seems to be typical 'Little Englander'.

As far as benefits CS members get from Chess Scotland there are a few. (By the way, we are usually quite friendly)

1) We get an ELO type grading, which is updated weekly
2) We get a discount at all CS rated congresses
3) We get all our games in foreign, (eg English), congresses graded, should we submit the results. (It is all results or nothing) A benefit about to be withdrawn by the ECF.
4) Members have access to our full grading history, and those of all players in Scotland, (it was my suggestion that this data be made available, and password protected, as a benefit of membership), subsequently copied by the ECF.
5) At the AGM it is one member one vote (proxies are allowed)

You have frequently made it clear that it is individual players who fund the ECF, but it is very clear that these individuals have zero votes when it comes to the AGM.

You have also made it abundantly clear that you, individually, control multiple votes at the AGM. To which peculiarity of the democratic system do you owe this? Is it because many individuals attend your events, for which they pay, but you get the votes and influence?

A proud Scot, and fully paid up member of CS. Also a full member of the ECF, membership number S18945.

So, as a foreign member of the ECF, what exactly are the benefits I receive?

Sadly all I have received so far is a cardboard sheet with my membership number. At that I had to call the office, as I had not as yet received my scrap of cardboard, to confirm that I was a member before the Northumberland Congress. No e-mail, no indication of how to access Chess Moves, no mention of a discount for BCM, no insurance discount either.

£19 because I wish to play a minimum of 3 congresses per annum in England.

Regards, a crap, but enthusiastic player, and Foreign (Scots) ECF Member.

[Roger de Coverly]

So, as a foreign member of the ECF, what exactly are the benefits I receive?

Sadly all I have received so far is a cardboard sheet with my membership number. At that I had to call the office, as I had not as yet received my scrap of cardboard, to confirm that I was a member before the Northumberland Congress. No e-mail, no indication of how to access Chess Moves, no mention of a discount for BCM, no insurance discount either.

Something the ECF won't admit to itself is that it is likely to cost more to collect from one hundred individuals than from one organisation. So it has to minimise individual benefits because they create additional cost. The package of benefits available to Platinum members is more akin to what Chess Scotland members receive.

At one time you would have got in the post a "welcome to the ECF" letter nominally signed by the President. Presumably this has been scrapped, probably not because there isn't a President to sign it.

[David Gilbert]

3) We get all our games in foreign, (eg English), congresses graded, should we submit the results. (It is all results or nothing) A benefit about to be withdrawn by the ECF.

The withdrawal of grading games played outside England has not been decided - it will be voted upon at the AGM. There will be some people arguing against the change. Although it may well happen, because the Statisticians argue there are too many unknowns that could corrupt some grades, but it's not a forgone conclusion.

[Roger de Coverly]

The withdrawal of grading games played outside England has not been decided - it will be voted upon at the AGM.

It hasn't been decided but it's a proposal from inside the ECF. It is, I expect, resource intensive to provide in the way that it's currently done, but it's a benefit both Chess Scotland and the Welsh Chess Union offer their membership. So perhaps the ECF should be looking to reform the way data is collected rather than scrapping it entirely. If you create a new post with ambitions to improve benefits to members, it's not the best of starts to immediately withdraw one of them.

[Ihor Lewyk]

3) We get all our games in foreign, (eg English), congresses graded, should we submit the results. (It is all results or nothing) A benefit about to be withdrawn by the ECF.

The withdrawal of grading games played outside England has not been decided - it will be voted upon at the AGM. There will be some people arguing against the change. Although it may well happen, because the Statisticians argue there are too many unknowns that could corrupt some grades, but it's not a forgone conclusion.

Mr Farthing has told the Yorkshire Chess Association that this facility has been withdrawn. No games will be graded by the ECF in non-game fee registered events. It has been removed from the new MO Framework agreement too.

[Alex Holowczak]

3) We get all our games in foreign, (eg English), congresses graded, should we submit the results. (It is all results or nothing) A benefit about to be withdrawn by the ECF.

The withdrawal of grading games played outside England has not been decided - it will be voted upon at the AGM. There will be some people arguing against the change. Although it may well happen, because the Statisticians argue there are too many unknowns that could corrupt some grades, but it's not a forgone conclusion.

Mr Farthing has told the Yorkshire Chess Association that this facility has been withdrawn. No games will be graded by the ECF in non-game fee registered events. It has been removed from the new MO Framework agreement too.

Yorkshire isn't foreign, or outside England...

[Roger de Coverly]

Mr Farthing has told the Yorkshire Chess Association that this facility has been withdrawn. No games will be graded by the ECF in non-game fee registered events. It has been removed from the new MO Framework agreement too.

It was a benefit of the original Direct membership scheme from 1993 or thereabouts, that games played by Direct members both abroad and in England would be graded. Direct membership was then a form of Platinum membership and intended to be a means whereby the activities of the BCF could be supported by individuals over and above the regular Game Fee payments by leagues and Congresses. It was thought desirable to give a long list of potential membership benefits of which extended grading was one.

Whilst the option to have games played in England graded was withdrawn, I believe because of the manipulation risk, the facility to have Foreign games graded remains. Indeed as a published benefit of membership, some notice has to be given of its withdrawal.

For a suitably high membership level, say Gold or higher, the YCA could try to get the ECF to retain the Foreign results feature and extend it to the Yorkshire evening leagues. After all the YCA does act sometimes as a chess federation in its own right, maintaining a grading system for example.

[LawrenceCooper]

Speaking as the International Rating Officer of the ECF, I am submitting results of games played outside England from ECF members who registered the event with me in advance to Richard Haddrell as normal.

[Ihor Lewyk]

Yorkshire isn't foreign, or outside England...

No need for confusion Alex. You are correct about where Yorkshire can be found. However, I was merely pointing out that the facility to have all games graded for ECF members under the MO has been withdrawn since last year. Indeed I don't think it was voted on at the AGM. We invited Andrew to our AGM in June and he said it wasn't even being considered by the ECF Board. A few weeks later it mysteriously got dropped from the MO Framework Agreement.

Anyway, are you telling me foreign events in say, Scotland, Wales or Guernsey are registered to pay ECF Game Fee? Actually don't bother to answer it.

Instead the ECF Board should look to ways to encourage ways to get all the Yorkshire leagues on board. There are a number of people in the county who are trying to do just that but we really could do with some help and friendly advice.

Ihor
President Yorkshire Chess Association.