Default Times

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Roger de Coverly
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Default Times

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:39 pm

It would appear that FIDE will shortly decide to reduce the default time for loss on time through no-show from one hour to 15 minutes or zero minutes.

Is it not self evident that in the UK, evening leagues, congresses, county matches and 4NCL are not viable with such short default times? Thus players facing a long journey before the game will decline to participate if either ( a) they won't get a game because they are delayed and arrive 0 or 15 minutes late or (b) they won't get a game because their opponent is similarly delayed.

You might hope that the ECF would set aside such a stupid rule for domestic competitions - but then it's the ECF we're talking about. It might be down to individual leagues and congresses to state a more relaxed policy. Personally I would support events that maintained the current leeway and boycotted those those that tried to be more stringent.

John Philpott

Re: Default Times

Post by John Philpott » Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:56 pm

I do not see why this should create an issue. The Leagues that I play in each have a default time specifically written into the rules which is different from the current FIDE 1 hour default time (Essex and London Leagues 45 minutes, North Circular League and Bronowski Trophy 30 minutes), which makes me think that the change in the FIDE default time is an irrelevance from the perspective of these competitions. The County Championship does currently apply a one hour default time, but as this is again specifically written into the rules, I think it would also be unaffected.

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Ben Purton
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Re: Default Times

Post by Ben Purton » Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:11 am

Think its safe to say , wed automatically lose every match in 4ncl, if we had olympiad rules.

Ben

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Richard Bates
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Re: Default Times

Post by Richard Bates » Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:23 am

Of course it's an irrelevance for non Fide rated competitions. Would like clarity on Fide rated ones though. The Hastings hill is a tough enough trek without the knowledge that timing it wrong could leave you with a wasted game! The whole rule is a joke, which seems to serve little purpose other than to find yet more ways to deny people the opportunity to play chess.

Fortunately i reckon this is one FIDE rule which would probably not command widespread support among arbiters.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Default Times

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:08 pm

Ben Purton wrote:Think its safe to say , wed automatically lose every match in 4ncl, if we had olympiad rules.
I don't think there'd be any chess in Spain at all.
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carstenpedersen
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Re: Default Times

Post by carstenpedersen » Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:31 pm

There is now a report on the FIDE Congress on the Danish Federation website (www.dsu.dk) by federation chairman
Erik Søbjerg.

According to this report the recommendation to the General assemly from the Exective Board, strongly influenced by vice President Makropoulos, was for zero minutes in absolute elite events and 15 minutes as the default in other events. With provisions for arbiters to use discretion, and organisers to specify other default times in invites.

However, at the GA Ilyumzhinov spoke and insisted that the rule should be worded so it becomes zero minutes in all games, without exceptions. Apparently the reason for this is that he'd once, together with then IOC president Samaranch and sponsors, had to wait 10 minutes for Karpov to turn up so he could make his first move for him!

According to Søbjerg, who regards the proposal as a total disaster, this received spontanous (really? - CP) applause and he credits Makropoulos for averting the risk of it being approved on the spot and instead deferred to a decision by the presidential board.

Apparently if approved by the Presidential Board this rule will come into effect 1/7/09, and Søbjerg says it is now up to the rules comittee, national federations and players to react to make the problems with this proposal plain to Ilyumzhinov.


Carsten

carstenpedersen
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Re: Default Times

Post by carstenpedersen » Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:31 pm

Sorry, posted twice in error
Last edited by carstenpedersen on Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Richard Bates
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Re: Default Times

Post by Richard Bates » Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:43 pm

carstenpedersen wrote:
Apparently if approved by the Presidential Board this rule will come into effect 1/7/09, and Søbjerg says it is now up to the rules comittee, national federations and players to react to make the problems with this proposal plain to Ilyumzhinov.

Carsten
I wouldn't hold out much hope. As with mobile phones it is an impossible argument to win against someone who thinks it's a good idea. The person arguing in favour will just say: "if you've got difficulty getting there on time, why not just plan to get there one hour early?".

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Default Times

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:52 pm

Apparently the reason for this is that he'd once, together with then IOC president Samaranch and sponsors, had to wait 10 minutes for Karpov to turn up so he could make his first move for him!
Presumably he would have preferred to award the game to Anand by default there and then.
if you've got difficulty getting there on time, why not just plan to get there one hour early
Because if it's an evening league starting at 7.30pm you've only just left work at 6.30pm. If it's a weekend tournament starting at 9.30 am, you're still in bed at 8.30 am.

Tim Spanton
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Re: Default Times

Post by Tim Spanton » Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:31 pm

Perhaps one idea is to schedule round times as they tend to do for baseball games in America, eg a 2.05pm start rather than 2pm. People still aim to be there for 2pm as it's the nearest round figure but being a couple of minutes late still gets you there on time. Of course this wouldn't cure notorious late arrivers, many of whom, in my experience, being also time-trouble addicts.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Default Times

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:41 pm

Perhaps one idea is to schedule round times as they tend to do for baseball games in America, eg a 2.05pm start rather than 2pm.
I think the point, Tim, is that amateur chess in the UK as we know it would be impossible if every game was defaulted when a player was only a minute late. For two reasons - firstly if you couldn't guarantee to be on time you might not travel at all - so no takers for county matches, London League , morning round of congresses etc, secondly that you wouldn't want to travel a long distance just to win by a technical time forfeit.

It's not a wonderful idea for professional chess either - you pay fees to top GMs, you might even forbid them from drawing inside 30 moves and then you default them for not being at the board at some precise time.

Richard Bates
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Re: Default Times

Post by Richard Bates » Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:20 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
if you've got difficulty getting there on time, why not just plan to get there one hour early
Because if it's an evening league starting at 7.30pm you've only just left work at 6.30pm. If it's a weekend tournament starting at 9.30 am, you're still in bed at 8.30 am.
You are ascribing a relevance of FIDE decisions to amateur (non-FIDE rated) chess that isn't there. FIDE don't have jurisdiction over non FIDE rated chess. That such a rule would be disastrous for evening league chess is not in doubt. But I doubt the rule will never be applied to evening league chess so it's not worth getting wound up about IMO.

My point is not that the proposed law is good (I think it is ridiculous), but that opposing views put on the grounds of needing time to get to the venue and account for delays, are unlikely to get very far with the FIDE Presidential Board because they can so easily be rebuffed by the above. The fact that many players don't want/find it inconvenient to get to the board/venue an hour early won't come in to it. One only has to look at the implementation of the 90min+30sec time limits in top flight chess for an example that FIDE isn't really concerned with the views of the players or the game of chess when taking decisions.

The simple case against "instant defaults" is that even if a problem exists (which i don't see) the punishment far outweighs the supposed crime (personally i think the loss of time on the clock is more than sufficient). But then i would argue the same with respect to the laws on mobile phones, and only the London League has seen sense on that. FIDE don't account for the fact that their decisions impact far beyond the elite top level professional game - to the levels where people play primarily for themselves for enjoyment, not for money, TV audiences, sponsorship or to win on technicalities.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Default Times

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:40 pm

You are ascribing a relevance of FIDE decisions to amateur (non-FIDE rated) chess that isn't there. FIDE don't have jurisdiction over non FIDE rated chess.
I believe that unlike the USCF, the ECF have adopted the FIDE laws of chess as being appropriate to govern domestic chess in England. Therefore unless the ECF did a global opt-out for domestic events, each event or organisation would have to adopt its own rules about default times. Many do already of course. Unlike some other countries, England isn't noted for the power craziness of its arbiters.

Domestic FIDE rated competitions are going to be problematic of course. What takes precedence?

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JustinHorton
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Re: Default Times

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:46 pm

Have the London League softened on mobile phones then? I didn't know that. Personally, I'm in the School of Draco on that issue.
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Richard Bates
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Re: Default Times

Post by Richard Bates » Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:09 pm

JustinHorton wrote:Have the London League softened on mobile phones then? I didn't know that. Personally, I'm in the School of Draco on that issue.
They allow phones to go off once. And (playing) captains are obviously allowed to use mobile phones to communicate with players en route.

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