British Universities 2013

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Jonathan Edwards
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British Universities 2013

Post by Jonathan Edwards » Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:35 pm

The BUCA Team Championship takes place next weekend...

Edinburgh University are entering a side to defend our title, but we were close to boycotting. Why? Because we have to pay ECF membership fees of £60 for the whole team so that the event can be ECF rated (which of course we don't care about it being ECF rated).

This is genuinely ridiculous. It might as well be called the English Universities' Team Championship. No wonder that we're the only non-English University taking part.

Just wondering people's thoughts on the matter.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: British Universities 2013

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:55 pm

Jonathan Edwards wrote: Just wondering people's thoughts on the matter.
ECF directors and members of Council with lots of votes don't believe that charging individual memberships puts people off playing. It doesn't help that the BUCA competition is classified as a league. Had it been classified as a Congress, the charge would have been reduced to £ 6 per head. Last season, the cost was 58p per game. In effect the cost of participation has been increased from around £ 3 per head to £ 12 per head. If you put this case, you will be told that this encourages you to play more chess.

(edit) You may be being overcharged. £ 60 I presume is £ 12 * 5, so a team of 4 plus one reserve. BUCA could alternatively have paid the ECF £ 2 per game per non-member. Whilst that's over three times what they were charged last season for everyone, they could have been charged £ 2 * 4 * 5 = £ 40. (/edit)
Last edited by Roger de Coverly on Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Clive Blackburn

Re: British Universities 2013

Post by Clive Blackburn » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:03 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote: If you put this case, you will be told that this encourages you to play more chess.
(in England)

John Townsend
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Re: British Universities 2013

Post by John Townsend » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:07 pm

One might have hoped that any requirement for ECF membership could be relaxed for a non-English team. It is disappointing if the Welsh universities are not taking part.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: British Universities 2013

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:09 pm

Clive Blackburn wrote:(in England)
If you are studying in a Scottish University and live in Scotland, the right to play in an English league isn't of value.

But I've put the argument to ECF membership advocates that unlimited rights to play in leagues and tournaments isn't much use if you only intend to play in one. They aren't prepared to listen.

AustinElliott
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Re: British Universities 2013

Post by AustinElliott » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:16 pm

Are Manchester University playing, anybody know? They're not listed on the BUCA website (though it seems not all the teams that have entered are?)

I ask partly because the Manchester University team have just withdrawn from the Manchester League in mid-season. I hear on the grapevine there were multiple reasons behind the decision, but the increase in game fee seems certain to have been one of them. University clubs are, I would guess, likely to have proportionally more people who play three or less graded games a year than 'yer average' club in an evening league, so they would be more affected than most by the change.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: British Universities 2013

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:21 pm

AustinElliott wrote: University clubs are, I would guess, likely to have proportionally more people who play three or less graded games a year than 'yer average' club in an evening league, so they would be more affected than most by the change.
This is immensely obvious and completely denied by the advocates of per head charging.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: British Universities 2013

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:29 pm

Jonathan Edwards wrote:Edinburgh University are entering a side to defend our title, but we were close to boycotting. Why? Because we have to pay ECF membership fees of £60 for the whole team so that the event can be ECF rated (which of course we don't care about it being ECF rated).
The BUCA AGM voted on this last year, and it went through 11-3 on a hand vote.
Jonathan Edwards wrote:No wonder that we're the only non-English University taking part.
You're not. Swansea have paid the entry fee, including £60 to make five of them ECF members, but haven't submitted a team list yet.
John Townsend wrote:It is disappointing if the Welsh universities are not taking part.
Only one Welsh team has ever entered - Swansea. They've entered this year, too.
AustinElliott wrote:Are Manchester University playing, anybody know? They're not listed on the BUCA website (though it seems not all the teams that have entered are?)
Manchester have never played in any BUCA. I'd e-mailed them/Facebooked them most years, but never had any reply from them, let alone an expression of interest.

As an aside, we're up to 17 entries this year so far. We had 19 last year, but none are from Oxford and Cambridge, mainly due to them clashing Seconds Varsity with the BUCA event. :(

Sean Hewitt
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Re: British Universities 2013

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:37 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Jonathan Edwards wrote:Edinburgh University are entering a side to defend our title, but we were close to boycotting. Why? Because we have to pay ECF membership fees of £60 for the whole team so that the event can be ECF rated (which of course we don't care about it being ECF rated).
The BUCA AGM voted on this last year, and it went through 11-3 on a hand vote.
Jonathan Edwards wrote:No wonder that we're the only non-English University taking part.
You're not. Swansea have paid the entry fee, including £60 to make five of them ECF members, but haven't submitted a team list yet.
John Townsend wrote:It is disappointing if the Welsh universities are not taking part.
Only one Welsh team has ever entered - Swansea. They've entered this year, too.
So, we can deduce that the application of the membership scheme has not had an adverse effect on entries. Advocates of per game charging appear to unwilling to accept this reality :lol:

Sean Hewitt
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Re: British Universities 2013

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:38 pm

Jonathan Edwards wrote:The BUCA Team Championship takes place next weekend...

Edinburgh University are entering a side to defend our title, but we were close to boycotting. Why? Because we have to pay ECF membership fees of £60 for the whole team so that the event can be ECF rated (which of course we don't care about it being ECF rated).

This is genuinely ridiculous. It might as well be called the English Universities' Team Championship. No wonder that we're the only non-English University taking part.

Just wondering people's thoughts on the matter.
How much will you be spending on
-Travel
-Accommodation
-Food
-Drink (it is a Uni event after all!)
- Entry Fees

Alex Holowczak
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Re: British Universities 2013

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:42 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:How much will you be spending on
-Travel
-Accommodation
-Food
-Drink (it is a Uni event after all!)
- Entry Fees
They've paid us £239 already, which covers accommodation (bed and breakfast) and entry fees. Their £60 for ECF membership fees is apparently going to be paid later in the week. They've also paid £10 in BUCA membership fees.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: British Universities 2013

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:47 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote: -Drink (it is a Uni event after all!)
Somewhat less than last year I would imagine. The ECF's income last year from the presence of the Edinburgh team was .58 * 5 * 4 = £ 11.60, this year it's £ 60. Even at £ 2 a game, paying per game would have been cheaper.

It's certainly a price hike, even if their decision to play was ultimately unaffected.

John Townsend
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Re: British Universities 2013

Post by John Townsend » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:58 pm

Alex Holowczak said, "Only one Welsh team has ever entered - Swansea.
They've entered this year, too."

May I question this? I remember playing for a Bangor team, perhaps twice,
circa 1966-7. I think we may have played at Oxford and York. Would someone
with access to records check this, please?

AustinElliott
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Re: British Universities 2013

Post by AustinElliott » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:00 pm

I wonder how University clubs meet these fees? I can't imagine they have much in the way of funds/assets. Do the players end up paying their own way entirely (i.e. paying £ 100+ each to participate?)

Alex Holowczak
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Re: British Universities 2013

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:00 pm

John Townsend wrote:Alex Holowczak said, "Only one Welsh team has ever entered - Swansea.
They've entered this year, too."

May I question this? I remember playing for a Bangor team, perhaps twice,
circa 1966-7. I think we may have played at Oxford and York. Would someone
with access to records check this, please?
Allow me to elaborate.

BUCA died in 1992, shortly after BH Wood died.

I only have records going back to 2010, when I restarted it (after a few false starts in the 2000s). This is the fourth time I've organised this event. We've only ever received entries from two non-English Universities: Swansea and Edinburgh. When I made the comment you quoted, I was referring to the period since 2010.
Last edited by Alex Holowczak on Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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