Chess row in Cork

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Richard James
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Chess row in Cork

Post by Richard James » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:23 pm

A rather disturbing report here.

Chess player expelled from tournament for assaulting a boy who he claimed was cheating against him by using an Android in the toilet.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:41 pm

Richard James wrote:A rather disturbing report here.

Chess player expelled from tournament for assaulting a boy who he claimed was cheating against him by using an Android in the toilet.
Appears to have been the Major section:

http://www.icu.ie/misc/games/sm/corkcongress2013/major/
http://www.icu.ie/misc/games/sm/corkcon ... /p002.html
http://www.icu.ie/misc/games/sm/corkcon ... /p019.html
http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=2503093

The incident took place in round 5, with both players on 3/4. The player in question is shown as winning that game, but neither him (he was expelled from the tournament) nor his opponent from round 5 played in the last round.

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Greg Breed
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Greg Breed » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:45 pm

I think the definition of assault is pretty vague. Grabbing someone by the arm, although technically in modern policing, is assault I think there has to be some intent there for it to be classed as such - IMO.
Clearly the defenders of the boy are trying to divert attention from their cheating kid onto the adult who exposed him. Typical these days!
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:46 pm

More (sort of) here:

http://ennischessclub.wordpress.com/201 ... s-results/

"I have been asked by a member of Cork chess club to take down the mention of the controversy that erupted in the major so out of respect to all parties involved I have done so. I don’t think ignoring these issues is the way forward though."

See also the comments section there.

And see here (it made the front page of the Limerick Chronicle):

http://www.joe.ie/home/tweet-of-the-day ... -0036922-1

Richard James
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Richard James » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:11 pm

Greg Breed wrote:I think the definition of assault is pretty vague. Grabbing someone by the arm, although technically in modern policing, is assault I think there has to be some intent there for it to be classed as such - IMO.
Clearly the defenders of the boy are trying to divert attention from their cheating kid onto the adult who exposed him. Typical these days!
The guy's a schoolteacher. It may be different in Ireland, but there's no way a teacher in the UK would be allowed to grab a pupil forcibly by the arm in that way except possibly to break up a fight and prevent someone getting hurt.

Alex McFarlane
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Alex McFarlane » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:18 pm

The person writing this report is the same one and is/was the ICU Secretary.

http://www.icu.ie/articles/display.php?id=365

Anyone for an EGM?

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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Ray Sayers » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:29 pm

It's not really assault though, is it? I mean, in the dry technical legal sense you could argue it, but in reality, he pulled him out of a cubicle to prove the boy was cheating. If the guy had malicious intent, he wouldn't have gone and brought a witness. He was obviously very upset and in the cold light of day should have just stepped back. But I agree with Greg, this is clouding the fact that someone was cheating and depriving someone out of what could have been a sizeable sum of money. Most of the reports seem to gloss over the cheating aspect.

Niall Doran
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Niall Doran » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:35 pm

Stating the obvious maybe, but it seems the only way to catch someone cheating, which they generally do in the privacy of the toilets, is to breach whatever privacy they’re entitled to by opening the door or looking over the top of the cubicle. In other words catching a cheater is nigh on impossible without breaking the rules oneself.
I can only see this getting worse in the coming years, and fear for the game at the grass roots level.

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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:40 pm

Ray Sayers wrote: But I agree with Greg, this is clouding the fact that someone was cheating and depriving someone out of what could have been a sizeable sum of money. Most of the reports seem to gloss over the cheating aspect.
There's a certain amount of exaggeration on the money side in the press reports. This was players with 3/4 in the second section of the tournament. The leader had 100%, so it's probably only the second, third and grading prizes that are realistically at stake.
Alex McFarlane wrote:The person writing this report is the same one and is/was the ICU Secretary.
According to the ICU website, there's a new Secretary. The row in the AGM report referred to is that old chestnut which used to bedevil the BCF when it had a National Club competition worthy of the name. Namely how many games do you have to have played for your club or team in a regional competition to be eligible for the national one?

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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Sean Hewitt » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:23 pm

It would appear that the report in the Irish Independent portrays only one side of events (the victim of the cheating). I understand from those who witnessed the incident and have given statements to the Gardai that they viewed the seriousness of the assault somewhat differently.

One account suggests that several blows were allegedly landed and that it took more than one person to pull the aggressor away.

The game was awarded as a win because the opponent was cheating. The cheater was also disqualified. The aggressor was then disqualified because of the alleged assault.

I suspect this one will run.

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Peter D Williams
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Peter D Williams » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:36 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:It would appear that the report in the Irish Independent portrays only one side of events (the victim of the cheating). I understand from those who witnessed the incident and have given statements to the Gardai that they viewed the seriousness of the assault somewhat differently.

One account suggests that several blows were allegedly landed and that it took more than one person to pull the aggressor away.

The game was awarded as a win because the opponent was cheating. The cheater was also disqualified. The aggressor was then disqualified because of the alleged assault.

I suspect this one will run.
Good job that never happened opponents coming to blows when a junior was caught cheating at one of your events :wink:

We must remain ever vigilant to people cheating at chess and report any concerns we have to the chess organizers.Hash penalty's should be put in place for any one caught cheating and the individuals should be named.

Well back to the garden and a cup of tea.
when you are successful many losers bark at you.

Gordon Cadden
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Gordon Cadden » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:08 pm

The Tournament Directors action in calling out the Garda Siochana, was correct. Gabriel Mirza is/was the unwelcome secretary of the Irish Chess Union.
Please refer to Alex McFarlane's thread on this page, before making further comment.

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Peter D Williams
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Peter D Williams » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:21 pm

Gordon Cadden wrote:The Tournament Directors action in calling out the Garda Siochana, was correct. Gabriel Mirza is/was the unwelcome secretary of the Irish Chess Union.
Please refer to Alex McFarlane's thread on this page, before making further comment.

Members on here are perfectly entitled to make comments over this matter on this chess Forum unless a moderator tells us not to.
when you are successful many losers bark at you.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:02 pm

Peter D Williams wrote:
Gordon Cadden wrote:The Tournament Directors action in calling out the Garda Siochana, was correct. Gabriel Mirza is/was the unwelcome secretary of the Irish Chess Union.
Please refer to Alex McFarlane's thread on this page, before making further comment.

Members on here are perfectly entitled to make comments over this matter on this chess Forum unless a moderator tells us not to.
I think Mr Cadden's post may have been in response to Greg Breed's comment that the assault wasn't really assault and that the cheater is merely seeking to shift attention from his own transgression by making himself out to the be the victim. Sean Hewitt's subsequent response suggest that this was not the case and that this was a genuine case of assault.

Reading this thread it does appear that the accusation of cheating was upheld. I would add that if I was accused of cheating and assaulted I would be unlikely to continue in the tournament guilty or innocent.

But if people want to speculate with only half the facts and a bit of hearsay you are right that only Carl can stop it.

As an aside this reminds me of the infamous Scotrail incident from a few years back where the right wing press and internet trolls used a young man's (admittedly atrocious) conduct to justify the fact that he was subsequently assaulted. Assault is assault, simple as.
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Alistair Campbell
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Alistair Campbell » Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:39 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Assault is assault, simple as.
Unless it's battery? I'd always understood, perhaps incorrectly, that assault didn't involve physical contact. Once the punches allegedly start flying, then it's battery, or GBH or ABH or something. Of course, that is English law, and Irish law is different. (As is Scots Law, in this case. Incidentally, I believe "the big man" in the Polmont station incident was never prosecuted).

More importantly, do we know how the grading prizes were to be awarded??

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