Chess row in Cork

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Stewart Reuben
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Stewart Reuben » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:18 pm


Chris Rice
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Chris Rice » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:09 am

The Irish Herald have run an article on this. The unamed kid got a four month suspension and Gabriel Mirza who caught the kid using the PDA got a 10 month ban from involvement in the Irish Chess Union for bringing that organisation into disrepute.

http://www.herald.ie/news/teen-caught-i ... 27759.html

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:25 am

Are the ICU going to ban themselves for bringing themselves into disrepute? A four month ban is not enough. I realise Mr Mirza was possibly a bit over-zealous, but why should he get a longer ban?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:33 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote: I realise Mr Mirza was possibly a bit over-zealous, but why should he get a longer ban?
I think he used to be an official of the ICU. I think there was some row about eligibility of foreign players for the Irish equivalent of the 4NCL and another grouping took power. But banning a cheat for four months, no matter what school he attended, and banning the offended player for ten, sends all the wrong messages. Although not formally a team competition, I believe the offending player was there as part of a school squad. Did the school ever apologise for the behaviour of its player?

Angus French
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Angus French » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:40 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:Are the ICU going to ban themselves for bringing themselves into disrepute? A four month ban is not enough. I realise Mr Mirza was possibly a bit over-zealous, but why should he get a longer ban?
Not sure if it's in the public domain but I heard there was a previous incident involving the two players.

Anyhow, I see Mr. Mirza has played recently in the 4NCL and I wondered if the ECF will also apply a ban?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:53 am

Angus French wrote: Anyhow, I see Mr. Mirza has played recently in the 4NCL and I wondered if the ECF will also apply a ban?
What would be the reason? I believe the FIDE Code of Ethics has ruled that national bans are just that, national. Like the Atalik case between Turkey and Greece, the ban on Mizra has a whiff of political revenge about it.

I don't actually think the ECF has the power to ban anyone from taking part in the 4NCL or in any UK tournament, particularly if they are not identified as ENG with FIDE. Organisers can decline to accept entries and team captains can decline to select players for matches, but that's not because the ECF compel them to do so.

Gordon Cadden
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Gordon Cadden » Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:04 am

The daughter of Gabriel Mirza is currently the Ladies Champion of Ireland. The Gardai was called to this incident, and they decided not to prosecute. No doubt that Gabriel Mirza was over-zealous in shoulder charging the lavatory door, but he did expose the cheat. Believe that the ICU should have reprimanded him, rather than give him a 10 month ban. A 4 month suspension for the culprit, was far too lenient.
Gonzaga College would be unlikely to apologise for the behaviour of this pupil. They have already suffered enough embarrassment.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:45 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:Are the ICU going to ban themselves for bringing themselves into disrepute? A four month ban is not enough. I realise Mr Mirza was possibly a bit over-zealous, but why should he get a longer ban?
The child allegedly cheated in a game of chess.

The adult allegedly assaulted a child.

In my opinion, these don't seem to be unreasonable grounds for giving the adult a longer ban than the child.

John Redmond
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by John Redmond » Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:00 am

As I understand it, GM did receive a 10 month ban - but with 7 months suspended. The suspension is in effect for 3 years and during that period he cannot occupy those ICU-appointed positions which involve authority over players (e.g. team coach).
If the facts found by the ICU Disciplinary Committee about the incident are correct, then I don't think the sanction imposed on GM is unreasonable. The Committee found that GM had used force against a minor. In those circumstances the ICU had to impose some kind of non-trivial punishment. Presumably, if an adult forcibly removed a junior player from a toilet-cubicle at the 4NCL we would expect the authorities to come down fairly hard on the offender.
Of course, it's deeply unfortunate that a (separate) ICU Disciplinary Committee imposed such a light sanction on the junior who was found to be using a computer during his game. It's a fairly settled view that that particular disciplinary episode was badly mishandled. In the intervening period the ICU more or less imploded, with the Chairman resigning shortly after a spectacularly acrimonious AGM (at which the organisation failed to produce its accounts.) Recently, though, the ICU does seem to be attempting to pull itself together: settling the outstanding issues from the Cork incident; presenting its accounts to an upcoming EGM; and drawing up a new Code of Conduct.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:11 pm

"In the intervening period the ICU more or less imploded, with the Chairman resigning shortly after a spectacularly acrimonious AGM (at which the organisation failed to produce its accounts.) "

ECF please note...

I still don't see why normally the person who retaliates gets a longer suspension than the original offender, unless in extreme circumstances. But John Redmond's further information answers that question.

I'm sure the school will not apologise. I had occasion to send off a Kingston Grammar School hockey player some years ago, after he threw his stick at me, the coach then called me a "f****** c***", and the school not only failed to apologise for either event, they only suspended the player after a second incident, after which the Umpires Association refused to appoint to their matches. Schools do not apologise if they can avoid it.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:23 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:. Schools do not apologise if they can avoid it.
Perhaps the ECF is doing better than we thought. At least in the incidents known about, the parents and perpetrators admitted the wrong doing and apologised.

Graham Borrowdale

Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Graham Borrowdale » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:32 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Kevin Thurlow wrote:Are the ICU going to ban themselves for bringing themselves into disrepute? A four month ban is not enough. I realise Mr Mirza was possibly a bit over-zealous, but why should he get a longer ban?
The child allegedly cheated in a game of chess.

The adult allegedly assaulted a child.

In my opinion, these don't seem to be unreasonable grounds for giving the adult a longer ban than the child.
Very well put Alex, I completely agree.

The end does not always justify the means

Adam Ashton
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Adam Ashton » Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:21 pm

Graham Borrowdale wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Kevin Thurlow wrote:Are the ICU going to ban themselves for bringing themselves into disrepute? A four month ban is not enough. I realise Mr Mirza was possibly a bit over-zealous, but why should he get a longer ban?
The child allegedly cheated in a game of chess.

The adult allegedly assaulted a child.

In my opinion, these don't seem to be unreasonable grounds for giving the adult a longer ban than the child.
Very well put Alex, I completely agree.

The end does not always justify the means
From what I gather he dragged him out of a toilet because he was cheating. It might technically be 'assault' but it hardly seems very serious in my view given that he was proven correct. Presumably the police would still be involved if he was guily of any genuine assault.

I'd have to agree with earlier posters that the two sentences send out completely the wrong message.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:29 pm

Adam Ashton wrote:
From what I gather he dragged him out of a toilet because he was cheating. It might technically be 'assault' but it hardly seems very serious in my view given that he was proven correct. Presumably the police would still be involved if he was guily of any genuine assault.

I'd have to agree with earlier posters that the two sentences send out completely the wrong message.
Recalling the earlier discussion on the incident the assault was more than just dragging the offender out of the toilet; several punches were thrown. It comes back to that old cliche - namely that two wrongs do not make a right.
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Matthew Turner
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Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Matthew Turner » Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:05 am

There are quite a lot of issues of principle here, but the ICU has to consider the practicalities of the situation. What exactly is Gabriel Mirza being banned for? If he has been found 'guilty' of 'physically assaulting a child' then presumably he is considered a future danger to children. What steps has the ICU taken to avoid such a situation happening again? Realistically, I doubt there is much that the ICU can do, but that means if a similar incident happened in future the lawyers could have a field day.

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