Chess row in Cork

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
Post Reply
Krishna Shiatis
Posts: 667
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:08 pm

Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Krishna Shiatis » Thu May 09, 2013 5:18 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Krishna Shiatis wrote: Even if he does find a device, can he prove that it was used if he finds it on him and the person is not using it?
It doesn't have to be in use for a chess engine, just being switched on is enough.
Thanks Roger.

There is an expression (used in accountancy surprisingly enough) that it is not just about what you do, but what you are seen to be doing that is important.

The general consensus seems to be that players should remain at the board/ in the hall as best practice.

When we went to Prague, once the players went into play, they were not allowed out until they had finished (there was security at the door and all players had special badges) and the toilets were only accessible from the playing hall (they cordoned the other exits off). I thought that was great and it did give me a lot of confidence.

User avatar
Peter D Williams
Posts: 839
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:15 pm
Location: Hampshire

Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Peter D Williams » Thu May 09, 2013 5:20 pm

Krishna Shiatis wrote:In my short time as a chess parent, I have seen some cases (I think) of cheating. Some blatant (coaches/parents instructing kids during a game) some less blatant where people are running out frequently on their own move and throughout the game. On one occasion the person in question left the board 16 times in just one game. I told the arbiter who was quite elderly, but he could not keep up with the disappearing person.

It does raise the question about toilets etc, because what can the arbiter do if someone is doing this kind of thing in the toilets/anywhere else? Can he search the person? Even if he does find a device, can he prove that it was used if he finds it on him and the person is not using it?

I have instructed my children to stay at their board/in the playing room (as much as possible) for the duration of their games and to go to the toilet before they begin. I make sure that they eat between rounds (where possible) and take a bottle of water with them. This means that it minimises reasons for leaving the board. They do walk around the room for breaks and look at other games when it is longplay and I think that is fine.
Krishna makes some very good points like she always does :D
I have noticed juniors/and adults making frequent trips to the toilets.I do not believe all of them have a weak bladder :wink:
I have also seen an adult player reading from the chess book stall when he was still playing a chess game the arbiter was in anther room by the time i had gone to find him the adult had moved away from the chess book stall.I was told by a very good friend that he caught a child cheating who was playing his child using books from the book stall.
I have also heard heard juniors/adults discussing games while still playing.
I always made sure Peter went to the toilet before a chess game and had a drink with him to minimizes reasons for leaving the board of course if it was a very long game i to told him it was fine to get up and have a look at other games.
when you are successful many losers bark at you.

Krishna Shiatis
Posts: 667
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:08 pm

Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Krishna Shiatis » Thu May 09, 2013 5:25 pm

Peter D Williams wrote: Krishna makes some very good points like she always does :D
I have noticed juniors/and adults making frequent trips to the toilets.I do not believe all of them have a weak bladder :wink:
I have also seen an adult player reading from the chess book stall when he was still playing a chess game the arbiter was in anther room by the time i had gone to find him the adult had moved away from the chess book stall.I was told by a very good friend that he caught a child cheating who was playing his child using books from the book stall.
I have also heard heard juniors/adults discussing games while still playing.
I always made sure Peter went to the toilet before a chess game and had a drink with him to minimizes reasons for leaving the board of course if it was a very long game i to told him it was fine to get up and have a look at other games.
Thanks Peter - likewise! :)

User avatar
Christopher Kreuzer
Posts: 7295
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
Location: London

Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Thu May 09, 2013 5:41 pm

Peter D Williams wrote: I have noticed juniors/and adults making frequent trips to the toilets.I do not believe all of them have a weak bladder :wink:
Sometimes it can simply be a combination of a hot day, or a crowded room getting overheated with the number of players in there, combined with access to water coolers and sipping water to settle nerves. Rather than make 'humorous' comments about weak bladders (which patronises those who may have medical conditions), you could do worse than actually consider whether chess players as a group tend to visit the toilet more over a four-hour playing session than (say) people watching a film in a cinema for a couple of hours.

User avatar
Peter D Williams
Posts: 839
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:15 pm
Location: Hampshire

Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Peter D Williams » Thu May 09, 2013 6:21 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Sometimes it can simply be a combination of a hot day, or a crowded room getting overheated with the number of players in there, combined with access to water coolers and sipping water to settle nerves. Rather than make 'humorous' comments about weak bladders (which patronises those who may have medical conditions), you could do worse than actually consider whether chess players as a group tend to visit the toilet more over a four-hour playing session than (say) people watching a film in a cinema for a couple of hours.
I make a humorous comment on here any time i want to. knowing that your not keen on humorous comments i try and do them more often :D :D

You may get the odd person who has a medical conditions. but not all of them :wink:

Right it soon be time for dinner and a nice glass of chilled wine.

See you tomorrow to see what progress we made on here with the various subjects
when you are successful many losers bark at you.

User avatar
Christopher Kreuzer
Posts: 7295
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
Location: London

Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri May 10, 2013 3:10 pm

Peter D Williams wrote:I make a humorous comment on here any time i want to. knowing that your not keen on humorous comments i try and do them more often :D :D
Of course. And anyone who disagrees with your comments is also free to say so.
Peter D Williams wrote:You may get the odd person who has a medical conditions. but not all of them :wink:
Are you really saying what I think you are saying? You appear to be casting aspersions on anyone who visits the toilet more often than you think is 'legitimate'. There is a reason I put 'legitimate' and 'humorous' in quote marks. It's not actually funny to say the things you are saying, and contributes to the erosion of trust between players. My view is that if you personally notice juniors/and adults making frequent trips to the toilets and you think this is suspicious behaviour, you need to actually say something, first to them, and then to others if needed, rather than making comments on a forum like this. You appear to have done this in the case where you saw an adult player reading from the chess book stall when he was still playing a chess game. Why didn't you do anything about your other suspicions?

Gordon Cadden
Posts: 484
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:57 pm

Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Gordon Cadden » Fri May 10, 2013 3:19 pm

Peter D Williams wrote:
Krishna Shiatis wrote:In my short time as a chess parent, I have seen some cases (I think) of cheating. Some blatant (coaches/parents instructing kids during a game) some less blatant where people are running out frequently on their own move and throughout the game. On one occasion the person in question left the board 16 times in just one game. I told the arbiter who was quite elderly, but he could not keep up with the disappearing person.

It does raise the question about toilets etc, because what can the arbiter do if someone is doing this kind of thing in the toilets/anywhere else? Can he search the person? Even if he does find a device, can he prove that it was used if he finds it on him and the person is not using it?

I have instructed my children to stay at their board/in the playing room (as much as possible) for the duration of their games and to go to the toilet before they begin. I make sure that they eat between rounds (where possible) and take a bottle of water with them. This means that it minimises reasons for leaving the board. They do walk around the room for breaks and look at other games when it is longplay and I think that is fine.
Krishna makes some very good points like she always does :D
I have noticed juniors/and adults making frequent trips to the toilets.I do not believe all of them have a weak bladder :wink:
I have also seen an adult player reading from the chess book stall when he was still playing a chess game the arbiter was in anther room by the time i had gone to find him the adult had moved away from the chess book stall.I was told by a very good friend that he caught a child cheating who was playing his child using books from the book stall.
I have also heard heard juniors/adults discussing games while still playing.
I always made sure Peter went to the toilet before a chess game and had a drink with him to minimizes reasons for leaving the board of course if it was a very long game i to told him it was fine to get up and have a look at other games.
Chess-players with genuine weak bladders, should be able to use a toilet cubicle, without fear of trepidation. Kicking in the toilet cubicle, is not the answer.
We await the outcome of the Irish Chess Union Investigation, which could have worldwide implications, for the possession of smartphones in a playing area.
Last edited by Gordon Cadden on Wed May 15, 2013 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Peter D Williams
Posts: 839
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:15 pm
Location: Hampshire

Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Peter D Williams » Fri May 10, 2013 3:49 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Are you really saying what I think you are saying? You appear to be casting aspersions on anyone who visits the toilet more often than you think is 'legitimate'. There is a reason I put 'legitimate' and 'humorous' in quote marks. It's not actually funny to say the things you are saying, and contributes to the erosion of trust between players. My view is that if you personally notice juniors/and adults making frequent trips to the toilets and you think this is suspicious behaviour, you need to actually say something, first to them, and then to others if needed, rather than making comments on a forum like this. You appear to have done this in the case where you saw an adult player reading from the chess book stall when he was still playing a chess game. Why didn't you do anything about your other suspicions?
Afternoon all :D

I could not be bothered to do anything about my other suspicions as my son was not playing those players.We had at least 2 cases that we know of where people have been caught cheating looks like those two cases did a good job of breaking down trust between players :wink:
I make comments on this forum about chess matters any time i want to and will continue to do so. I do not need your permissions or to consult others before posting on here. ' The only person i take note of on here over postings is Carl/ mods.

Do you post at weekends? I rarely do unless its an emergency or a very pressing issue weekends should be post free so has to spend time with the family :D


Weather better today tomato plants are coming on rather nice i got to De-mist them in a minute :D

I am off till Tuesday.
when you are successful many losers bark at you.

User avatar
Peter D Williams
Posts: 839
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:15 pm
Location: Hampshire

Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Peter D Williams » Fri May 10, 2013 3:54 pm

Gordon Cadden wrote: Chess-players with genuine weak bladders, should be able to use a toilet cubicle, without fear of trepidation. Kicking in the toilet cubicle, is not the answer.
Hello

Who talking about kicking in the toilet cubicle? No one allowed to do that? is that what you would do?

see you Tuesday :D tomato plants await attention
when you are successful many losers bark at you.

Graham Borrowdale

Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Graham Borrowdale » Fri May 10, 2013 3:59 pm

Thanks to Gordon for trying to introduce some common sense into this. The day I am accused of cheating for visiting the toilet, weak bladder or not, will be the day I give up chess (don't all rush, Bedfordshire players!).
More seriously, there does seem to be an air of paranoia about all of this. Regulations about not leaving the playing area, needing permission to visit the toilets on move, etc, were clearly made for 'professional' type events. I really don't expect to see them applied to my local league and similar events. I know players who leave the playing venue to smoke - should they be followed? What about those who go to the bar for a drink? And if an opponent really wants to win by using a smartphone, then I would just say, "wow, well done, what did that achieve?".
I agree that the young player in Cork might well be proven to have been guilty, but I can't agree that his opponent should have more right than others to justice, simply because he is capable of breaking down a toilet cubicle.

User avatar
Christopher Kreuzer
Posts: 7295
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
Location: London

Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri May 10, 2013 4:10 pm

Peter D Williams wrote: I could not be bothered to do anything about my other suspicions as my son was not playing those players.We had at least 2 cases that we know of where people have been caught cheating looks like those two cases did a good job of breaking down trust between players :wink:
Well, if you have suspicions, it shouldn't really matter if you are playing that person or not. I agree with you that those two cases did a good job of breaking down trust between players, but I still think that this is something that should be discussed seriously, and adding 'wink' emoticons doesn't really do that.
Peter D Williams wrote:I make comments on this forum about chess matters any time i want to and will continue to do so.I do not need your permissions or to consult others before posting on here. ' The only person i take note of on here over postings is Carl/ mods.
Of course. But you shouldn't mistake or (worse) misrepresent others disagreeing with you as them asking you to ask them for permission. I never said that and I hope I never would. You should take note of what others say, though, as some may say some things worth listening to before Carl or a moderator are available. They (moderators) can only do so much, and while we can and should disagree where needed, it doesn't need to be confrontational.

I hope you (and everyone else here) has a nice weekend. :D

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 18098
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 10, 2013 5:35 pm

Graham Borrowdale wrote:I really don't expect to see them applied to my local league and similar events. I know players who leave the playing venue to smoke - should they be followed? What about those who go to the bar for a drink?
The key point is to remind players of the law or convention that they don't leave the board whilst their clock is running without good reason. That doesn't prevent the drinkers and smokers provided they do it whilst the opponent is thinking. Also that once the phone is switched off at the start of the game, it remains switched off for the entire game.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 18098
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 10, 2013 5:57 pm

Gordon Cadden wrote: We await the outcome of the Irish Chess Union Investigation, which could have worldwide implications, for the use of smartphones in a playing area.
Ever since the relevant Laws were introduced, I had not supposed that they implied anything other than that a phone, even if present, had to remain switched off for the entire duration of the game. Is this in some way disputed?

Gordon Cadden
Posts: 484
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:57 pm

Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Gordon Cadden » Sat May 11, 2013 11:00 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Gordon Cadden wrote: We await the outcome of the Irish Chess Union Investigation, which could have worldwide implications, for the use of smartphones in a playing area.
Ever since the relevant Laws were introduced, I had not supposed that they implied anything other than that a phone, even if present, had to remain switched off for the entire duration of the game. Is this in some way disputed?
The playing area to include the refreshment, and toilet area. Switching off a phone, will not solve the problem.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 18098
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Chess row in Cork

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat May 11, 2013 11:31 am

Gordon Cadden wrote: The playing area to include the refreshment, and toilet area. Switching off a phone, will not solve the problem.


Could you explain please? The phone should remain switched off when the player was in the refreshment or toilet areas. That's my interpretation of the current rule, is that questioned?

Post Reply