London Chess Classic 2013

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JustinHadi

Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by JustinHadi » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:20 am

Surely the highest scoring players in the rapidplay should qualify given the classic itself is rapid?

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:05 am

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:Which presumably means that any non English "tourists" wishing to play at short notice will be turned away unless they can be found on the FIDE website.
Unless either (a) they're happy to be registered with England or (b) the rules have changed by then. I wouldn't rule either out.
Has anyone checked how big of a problem we are talking about?
Question to organizers like Sean: how many entries did you receive in the first half of 2013 from players without FIDE ID claiming a non-ENG designation?

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Adam Raoof
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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Adam Raoof » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:14 am

Paolo Casaschi wrote:
IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:Which presumably means that any non English "tourists" wishing to play at short notice will be turned away unless they can be found on the FIDE website.
Unless either (a) they're happy to be registered with England or (b) the rules have changed by then. I wouldn't rule either out.
Has anyone checked how big of a problem we are talking about?
Question to organizers like Sean: how many entries did you receive in the first half of 2013 from players without FIDE ID claiming a non-ENG designation?
The number is pretty low - I checked a few events at random -

http://www.hendonchessclub.com/golders- ... _13_01.txt

- but the downside is that if you are organising a one off event outside an area with lots of active players and you have a growing immigrant community this number may rise sharply.

My question is what will happen to the FIDE registered tournament that allows in the one non-ENG player without a FIN? Will that event risk not being rated?

According to the guidance from other Federations it is implied that the IRO can submit the rating file, whether or not all the FINs are quoted, but that there is a risk of not being rated. According to the ECF guidance it is not physically possible to submit the file without every player having a FIN. Which is accurate? If we can submit, how big is the risk, in reality? If we can't submit, then will the IRO from a Federation be responsible for chasing up the information required if organisers do not? Of course I think that organisers should be primarily responsible, but inevitably some may not be so diligent!

Of course it would be easier if FIDE did not invent rules like this without considering the knock-on effects in a little more depth.

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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Sean Hewitt » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:38 am

Adam Raoof wrote: My question is what will happen to the FIDE registered tournament that allows in the one non-ENG player without a FIN? Will that event risk not being rated?

According to the guidance from other Federations it is implied that the IRO can submit the rating file, whether or not all the FINs are quoted, but that there is a risk of not being rated. According to the ECF guidance it is not physically possible to submit the file without every player having a FIN. Which is accurate?
My guidance is accurate (of course!). Here is the message from the FIDE rating server
You can upload Cross Table file from your hard drive. Click 'Browse to get File' and then 'Submit' to import it.
Server does not accept foreigners in reports without FIDE ID
If you ignore this and upload a rating file with a foreign player without a FIN you get
Report import status:
[PLAYER NAME] Not complete data. All foreigners should have ID Number.
1

Parse error found. Please correct the tournament report and press SUBMIT button again
So it really is not possible to submit the rating file if a foreign player does not have a FIN.

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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:45 am

Sean Hewitt wrote:So it really is not possible to submit the rating file if a foreign player does not have a FIN.

Is it not possible to email the file to the FIDE rating administrator and ask them to sort out the data by assigning codes where missing?

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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Sean Hewitt » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:48 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sean Hewitt wrote:So it really is not possible to submit the rating file if a foreign player does not have a FIN.
Is it not possible to email the file to the FIDE rating administrator and ask them to sort out the data by assigning codes where missing?
It's possible to send the email of course, but they have already stated that they will not accept rating files with missing FINs for foreign players. Therefore, such action will not get the event rated. That is why organisers need to follow the advice that has already been given.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Adam Raoof » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:51 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sean Hewitt wrote:So it really is not possible to submit the rating file if a foreign player does not have a FIN.

Is it not possible to email the file to the FIDE rating administrator and ask them to sort out the data by assigning codes where missing?
That would defeat the purpose of the new FIDE regulation - they would rather the IROs did that work, and the IROs would probably rather that organisers did it at the point of entry. For a large event such as the Classic it wouldn't be possible to risk accepting even one non-ENG entry without a FIN.

I think the advice from our own IRO is very clear and straightforward. I am not so sure about the other advice I have seen, but I guess we will see what happens.

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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:56 am

Adam Raoof wrote: For a large event such as the Classic it wouldn't be possible to risk accepting even one non-ENG entry without a FIN.
Which means turning away entries. Any sign of a protest or even an objection by the ECF?

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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Sean Hewitt » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:00 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Adam Raoof wrote: For a large event such as the Classic it wouldn't be possible to risk accepting even one non-ENG entry without a FIN.
Which means turning away entries.
No, it doesn't. It simply means getting foreign players to obtain a FIN in advance, which is not difficult.
Roger de Coverly wrote:Any sign of a protest or even an objection by the ECF?
The subject is on the agenda for Sunday's board meeting.

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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:10 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote: It simply means getting foreign players to obtain a FIN in advance, which is not difficult.
Someone turns up on the day at a London Classic Blitz or even a Golders Green rapidplay. Do you have a FIN? What's one of them? Do you allow them to play?


The same would apply to English players playing abroad. Would the ECF issue a FIN to a non-member or the wrong sort of member?

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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Alan Walton » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:11 pm

I presume an entry condition to foreign un-rated players (I presume if you have previously played a rated game you already have a FIN in the system and a lookup query should suffice to identify the FIN), should say something like this

"If you enter the tournament and don't have a FIN you will automatically be registered as ENG (or the Federation organising the event), if you what to change this thereafter there will be a cost of 250Euro. If you don't want to be classified as ENG then contact the federation which you want to be rated under to obtain a FIN, only when you obtain this number you'll be allowed to enter"

Obviously re-wording may make this clearer

Seems quite simple and makes the system more efficient

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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:14 pm

Alan Walton wrote: Seems quite simple and makes the system more efficient
It's not as if you want people to play in chess tournaments if this would disrupt the smooth running of the rating system.

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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Adam Raoof » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:17 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sean Hewitt wrote: It simply means getting foreign players to obtain a FIN in advance, which is not difficult.
Someone turns up on the day at a London Classic Blitz or even a Golders Green rapidplay. Do you have a FIN? What's one of them? Do you allow them to play?


The same would apply to English players playing abroad. Would the ECF issue a FIN to a non-member or the wrong sort of member?
I couldn't let them play. How could I?

I don't think English players would have a problem.

I am doing a test - I have an unrated player who has entered Hampstead on 28-29 September. He is from Madrid and has no FIN, so I have emailed the Spanish Chess Federation with the query and marked it as urgent. His name is not Spanish, so we'll see if they can oblige, and how long it takes!

Alan is correct, most players will have a FIN even though they don't have a rating, because they have played in a rated event. It is a shame that the ECF grading database does not yet keep up with the allocation of FINs though - that would be useful.

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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Alan Walton » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:25 pm

It doesn't stop people entering, they just have to be aware that your first FIDE rated tournament could determine the country of affliation

If well word warning is shown, then people have themselves to blame if they don't obtain a FIN beforehand, why do you think all chess players are incompetant to follow procedures its not overally complex to a normal person

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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:39 pm

Alan Walton wrote: why do you think all chess players are incompetant to follow procedures its not overally complex to a normal person
If you want to encourage an activity it's my belief that you should remove rather than create impediments to participation, particularly if the decision to play is marginal.

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