London Chess Classic 2013

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David Sedgwick
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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:46 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:It is a shame that the ECF grading database does not yet keep up with the allocation of FINs though - that would be useful.
I find the facility at the foot of John Saunders's Links Page an invaluable way of checking quickly whether or not a player is in one or both of the FIDE and ECF databases.

http://www.saund.co.uk/chesslinks.html

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Adam Raoof
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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Adam Raoof » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:20 pm

The results of my test are in!

Email sent to FEDA (not even the IRO, as their email address is not in the FIDE directory) at 12.12pm

Reply, with shiny new FIDE ID, received at 12.56pm

Not bad...

Adam
Adam Raoof wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sean Hewitt wrote: It simply means getting foreign players to obtain a FIN in advance, which is not difficult.
Someone turns up on the day at a London Classic Blitz or even a Golders Green rapidplay. Do you have a FIN? What's one of them? Do you allow them to play?


The same would apply to English players playing abroad. Would the ECF issue a FIN to a non-member or the wrong sort of member?
I couldn't let them play. How could I?

I don't think English players would have a problem.

I am doing a test - I have an unrated player who has entered Hampstead on 28-29 September. He is from Madrid and has no FIN, so I have emailed the Spanish Chess Federation with the query and marked it as urgent. His name is not Spanish, so we'll see if they can oblige, and how long it takes!

Alan is correct, most players will have a FIN even though they don't have a rating, because they have played in a rated event. It is a shame that the ECF grading database does not yet keep up with the allocation of FINs though - that would be useful.

Ian Thompson
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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Ian Thompson » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:19 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Adam Raoof wrote: For a large event such as the Classic it wouldn't be possible to risk accepting even one non-ENG entry without a FIN.
Which means turning away entries. Any sign of a protest or even an objection by the ECF?
I hope not. It seems very sensible to me that someone wishing to take part in an international event should have some sort of registration with the international federation before doing so.

Are there any other sports that allow any old Tom, Dick or Harry to turn up and take part in an event having no idea who they are?

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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:53 pm

Ian Thompson wrote: Are there any other sports that allow any old Tom, Dick or Harry to turn up and take part in an event having no idea who they are?
I don't know about "no idea who they are", but it's been part of chess culture that Blitz tournaments in particular work on the basis of turning up and playing. If a consequence of extending international rating is to break that, dump the extension of international rating instead. Blitz is as much a social form of chess as it ever gets, you should not need to seek implicit permission from your national chess federation or suffer expensive consequences to play in a social event in another country or territory.

Sports frequently gripe about the difficulties of attracting new participants, but their administrators fail to notice the barriers they create in the interests of the smooth running of their events.

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:06 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:I don't know about "no idea who they are", but it's been part of chess culture that Blitz tournaments in particular work on the basis of turning up and playing. If a consequence of extending international rating is to break that, dump the extension of international rating instead. Blitz is as much a social form of chess as it ever gets, you should not need to seek implicit permission from your national chess federation or suffer expensive consequences to play in a social event in another country or territory.
If this is what you think, then just avoid FIDE rated blitz tournaments. Plenty of events left for you.
But you should also respect the preference of some players for more structured blitz events, including rating by FIDE. Some players see a value in this and accept the need of planning their activities few days in advance.
Casual blitz and FIDE rated blitz can exists side by side, just pick the one you like better, or even organize some events; but don't spoil the other option for everyone just because you don't like it.

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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:13 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote: Casual blitz and FIDE rated blitz can exists side by side
The London Classic Blitz takes place in the foyer. That's an area with people walking past, talking, a cafe and analysis area. It's a casual event by most standards of the word. But the point is this, it's unlikely to be possible for a non-English player to turn up for an evening Blitz tournament unless they are prepared to be classified as ENG by FIDE. There isn't a non-rated Blitz alongside.

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:27 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Paolo Casaschi wrote: Casual blitz and FIDE rated blitz can exists side by side
The London Classic Blitz takes place in the foyer. That's an area with people walking past, talking, a cafe and analysis area. It's a casual event by most standards of the word. But the point is this, it's unlikely to be possible for a non-English player to turn up for an evening Blitz tournament unless they are prepared to be classified as ENG by FIDE. There isn't a non-rated Blitz alongside.
The event is planned months in advance. Dates are published already for each event, including blitz. It does not look like casual games to me. Anyways, some people see a value in this organization.
The London Chess Classics is not the only place in England to play chess.
Just pick somewhere else to play your casual blitz. Or organize something yourself.

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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:02 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote: It does not look like casual games to me..
Have you played there? It's essentially designed for spectators and players wanting an extra evening's playing. If last year is anything to go on, you could decide to enter on the night, admittedly at a marginally higher price. The cost of having it FIDE rated is likely that last minute players will be excluded if they don't want to become English and haven't previously played in any FIDE rated event. The organisers appear prepared to pay that cost.

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:10 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Paolo Casaschi wrote: It does not look like casual games to me..
Have you played there? It's essentially designed for spectators and players wanting an extra evening's playing. If last year is anything to go on, you could decide to enter on the night, admittedly at a marginally higher price. The cost of having it FIDE rated is likely that last minute players will be excluded if they don't want to become English and haven't previously played in any FIDE rated event. The organisers appear prepared to pay that cost.
I played the FIDE Open the last three years.
If I remember correctly, even tickets for spectators were sold out on certain days. I really don't see how you can expect to show up and play blitz without notice when you might have to book your visit as a spectator.
I'm a big fan of casual blitz, in fact I miss in London a place where you can go any day of the week and play casual blitz, as they have in all major European cities. The London Chess Classic, by the organizer choice, is not the place for casual blitz and I understand/respect that choice.

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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Ian Thompson » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:17 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:The London Classic Blitz takes place in the foyer. That's an area with people walking past, talking, a cafe and analysis area. It's a casual event by most standards of the word.
In that case, it seems inappropriate to rate it at all to me. Do FIDE recommendations on playing conditions not apply to blitz chess?

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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:22 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote: I really don't see how you can expect to show up and play blitz without notice when you might have to book your visit as a spectator.
Wasn't the idea of the Blitz in part an evening's entertainment for those turning up as spectators, who might or might not be attracted to stay on to play some chess. Why otherwise would entry to the Blitz be allowed on the day?

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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:34 pm

Roger's entire argument seems to have one vital flaw in it.

If FIDE's ridiculous and unreasonable demands were a reason not to FIDE-rate the Blitz because it would turn people away, then the result of this would be that the Blitz tournaments would be organised, but they wouldn't be FIDE-rated. Indeed, the FIDE-rated Blitz tournaments were organised on a non-rated basis in the days before there was such a thing as a FIDE Blitz rating list.

I'm not involved, but I suspect the reasons were a combinations of things:
(1) Most of the entries come from the FIDE Open. The FIDE Open starts at 4:30pm in the week, and so most of the would-be entrants will still be slugging it out at 7pm.
(2) With the format for the main classic changing, visitors can realistically turn up in the evening and watch Carlsen etc. play, whereas before they'd be finished. Playing in the Blitz is therefore a less attractive option.

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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:47 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote: If FIDE's ridiculous and unreasonable demands were a reason not to FIDE-rate the Blitz because it would turn people away
I thought the position was that FIDE's demands would cause people to be turned away, but the organisers don't care. If indeed all the participants are taking place in the FIDE Open, it doesn't matter because they would have been turned away from that if they couldn't get a FIDE number. Adam's experience might suggest that organisers can build up a list of Federations where a quick and dispute free code allocation can be more or less guaranteed. There are presumably others where emails will go unanswered for months at a time.

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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:41 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:If indeed all the participants are taking place in the FIDE Open, it doesn't matter because they would have been turned away from that if they couldn't get a FIDE number.
This isn't an argument that supports not organising the Blitz. It may or may not support not FIDE-rating the Blitz, but that's a separate issue.

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Re: London Chess Classic 2013

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:28 am

Alex Holowczak wrote: This isn't an argument that supports not organising the Blitz. It may or may not support not FIDE-rating the Blitz, but that's a separate issue.
I don't think I have suggested not organising the Blitz. Running numerous events that may require players to be turned away is a decision by the London Chess Classic organisers forced on them by FIDE. Arguably they crossed the line of potentially turning players away once they FIDE rated the Open, not that there was much choice if that event was to take place at all.

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