Candidate Master

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Chris Rice
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Re: Candidate Master

Post by Chris Rice » Mon May 13, 2013 8:55 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:I only claimed the CM title as I realised that I wasn't going to get any higher. I might not have done if it had been on the way up!
Achieving a FIDE rating of 2200+ is no mean achievement so congratulations to you Kevin and all those who hold this title.

Richard Bates
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Re: Candidate Master

Post by Richard Bates » Mon May 13, 2013 7:08 pm

A logical extension of the "candidate" master title would be to require its achievement prior to the securing of IM norms etc. But i don't think FIDE like making norms harder these days, even if this one could be a money spinner for them...

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Peter D Williams
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Re: Candidate Master

Post by Peter D Williams » Tue May 14, 2013 12:51 pm

Afternoon All.

Unless you get to the rating of 2200 i can not see how you can be a Candidate Chess Master.

Weather not good today to much rain i got to postpone putting out my runner beans.
when you are successful many losers bark at you.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Candidate Master

Post by MartinCarpenter » Tue May 14, 2013 1:25 pm

FIDE does not work logically :) They also like giving this sort of thing away. Rupert Jones (~155ecf) being an FM due to some performance for a small country (Botswana it seems from the FIDE website?) at an olympiad is probably the prime amusing local UK example.

It looks like CM's with ratings under 2000 aren't at all uncommon: http://ratings.fide.com/advaction.phtml ... e&line=asc

This may well of course have something to do with the amount of respect it seems to get afforded!

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Peter D Williams
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Re: Candidate Master

Post by Peter D Williams » Tue May 14, 2013 1:30 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:FIDE does not work logically :) They also like giving this sort of thing away. Rupert Jones (~155ecf) being an FM due to some performance for a small country (Botswana it seems from the FIDE website?) at an olympiad is probably the prime amusing local UK example.

It looks like CM's with ratings under 2000 aren't at all uncommon: http://ratings.fide.com/advaction.phtml ... e&line=asc

This may well of course have something to do with the amount of respect it seems to get afforded!
I would only respect a player if he had got to a rating of 2200 but you make a good point thanks for answer. I shall take a closer look at your link about CM's not at all uncommon with a rating below 2200
when you are successful many losers bark at you.

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Greg Breed
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Re: Candidate Master

Post by Greg Breed » Tue May 14, 2013 1:39 pm

I know of at least one UK junior who was awarded the title for coming joint 2nd at the 2012 European Youth Chess Championship. Debate away...
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Candidate Master

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue May 14, 2013 1:41 pm

Peter D Williams wrote: I shall take a closer look at your link about CM's not at all uncommon with a rating below 2200
FIDE have a practice of awarding CM and FM titles for top three places in World and European junior championship events. Here's a recent report of such an award.
http://www.englishchess.org.uk/candidat ... ua-altman/

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Peter D Williams
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Re: Candidate Master

Post by Peter D Williams » Tue May 14, 2013 1:51 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Peter D Williams wrote: I shall take a closer look at your link about CM's not at all uncommon with a rating below 2200
FIDE have a practice of awarding CM and FM titles for top three places in World and European junior championship events. Here's a recent report of such an award.
http://www.englishchess.org.uk/candidat ... ua-altman/
Ok thanks for answer.The lad grade is only 1613 and must have been lower when awarded the title.I guess it gives him encouragement to become an IM at least its an English junior getting the award. I had no idea one could get CM with grade lower than 2200 you learn something every day.
when you are successful many losers bark at you.

Chris Rice
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Re: Candidate Master

Post by Chris Rice » Tue May 14, 2013 4:26 pm

Chris Rice wrote:
Kevin Thurlow wrote:I only claimed the CM title as I realised that I wasn't going to get any higher. I might not have done if it had been on the way up!
Achieving a FIDE rating of 2200+ is no mean achievement so congratulations to you Kevin and all those who hold this title.
After stating this earlier I thought i might have to take it back given all the comments about sub-2200s getting this title. However, after checking the fide site I have only found a couple of example relating to British players. One is Joshua Altman as mentioned previously. He is one of 30 English players to have the CM title. there are other people in the list that are now under 2200 (like the title inventor Stewart!) but they did at one time touch 2200 or more. Here's the list of English players:

http://ratings.fide.com/advaction.phtml ... e&line=asc

Only looks like one Scot, namely Paul Roberts (2221), no Irish players and two Welsh players Iolo Jones (2228) and someone called Anthony Hughes who is 55 years old I think and according to the stats never has played a rated game. That seems to be the only other anomaly as far as the UK is concerned although of course there may be a perfectly respectable explanation I am not aware of?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Candidate Master

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue May 14, 2013 5:04 pm

Chris Rice wrote:someone called Anthony Hughes who is 55 years old I think and according to the stats never has played a rated game.
Here's the story
http://www.welshchessunion.org.uk/natio ... ate-master

Like Lawrence Cooper, the Welsh rating officer appears to have been scouring the archives looking for lost norms and potential titles.

He got a 2200 plus performance in the 1977 World Student Championships. In those days, if your rating dropped below 2200, it was lost, so presumably that's why he doesn't appear to have a rating.

There's a player of the same name, playing for Wimbledon.
http://www.ecfgrading.org.uk/?ref=113153K

Chris Rice
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Re: Candidate Master

Post by Chris Rice » Tue May 14, 2013 8:31 pm

Thanks Roger.

I wondered what the take up rate for the CM title was, at least as it relates to GB & Ireland. Looking at the players rated 2200+ on the FIDE site (both active and inactive) we get the following figures. The first figure is those that have actually claimed the title and the second is the total number of 2200+ players on the FIDE database:

England 30 (359) 8.4%
Scotland 1 (57) 1.75%
Wales 2 (23) 8.7%
Ireland 0 (41) -

Overall (33) 480 = 6.8% which is an extremely low take up rate but the true figure is clearly much worse when you add in players who have reached 2200+ and have now fallen below this or off the list entirely. On the ECF site its £75 to apply for this title so there's some serious money to be made here with a targeted marketing effort one would have thought. No idea who gets the money, is it mostly to FIDE with a cut for the ECF for the admin?
Last edited by Chris Rice on Wed May 15, 2013 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Candidate Master

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue May 14, 2013 8:44 pm

Chris Rice wrote: On the ECF site its £75 to apply for this title so there's some serious money to be made here with a targeted marketing effort one would have thought. No idea who gets the money, is it mostly to FIDE with a cut for the ECF for the admin?
Here's what FIDE charge

http://www.fide.com/component/handbook/ ... w=category

(
Woman) Grandmaster: 330 Euro
(Woman) International Master: 165 Euro
(Woman) FIDE Master: 70 Euro
(Woman) Candidate Master: 50 Euro
International Arbiter: 100 Euro
FIDE Arbiter: 50 Euro
International Organizer: 100 Euro
FIDE Instructor: 100 Euro
FIDE Trainer: 200 Euro
FIDE Senior Trainer: 300 Euro
National Instructor 50 Euro
Developmental Instructor 50 Euro

Chris Rice
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Re: Candidate Master

Post by Chris Rice » Tue May 14, 2013 9:15 pm

So around £42 to FIDE and £33 to ECF. Seems rather a lot for a signed piece of paper. Of course then you've got the problem of explaining to non-chess players what it means when you show them the certificate. You can just imagine how the conversation might go...

"Candidate Master eh. Are you like a Grandmaster then?" - NO

"OK maybe like an International Master?" - NO

"Well presumably you are as good as a National master then?" - That's the FM title and NO

"You do know how to play chess?" - Why don't you just sod off.

I feel they should have called it something else. Like "Chess Professional". That way when you are down the pub you can explain that you were and are really good at the game but decided that there just wasn't enough money in the game to make it worthwhile continuing.

Alan Walton
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Re: Candidate Master

Post by Alan Walton » Tue May 14, 2013 9:21 pm

I got my CM title when it was introduced, I actually didn't think it was going to mean anything and I was right, but it was offered for free at the time by the ECF. They did try and charge me a few years later though but I refused to pay

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Candidate Master

Post by Stewart Reuben » Tue May 14, 2013 11:44 pm

Campo was very keen on giving anybody who scored 50% or more in the Olympiad, or Asian Cities, a rating of 2205, later 2200. This was extremely inflationary and, in my opinion, bad for such players. Intoducing the CM title for anybody who scored 50% or more in the Olympiad enabled me to get rid of the 2200 rule.
There are a large number of what I call lollipop titles in FIDE. These are the direct titles. There are far fewer in Europe as we do not hold zonals. There are some unrated IMs.

When Luke McShane won the World U10 aged 8, the publicity was mainly about his being awarded the FIDE Master title.

Recently at the Olympiad somebody asked me whether his CM title from 3.5 from 7 games could be put in jeopardy if he continued playing. He was very pleased when I said it was safe.

Nigel Short thinks the GM title is meaningless. I pointed out to him that it is a major part of the fuel that drives international chess events.

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