Fischer Number

[Steven Gardner]

My Fischer number is an unexpectedly low 5 given my status as a 26 year old club grinder. Here's the route I took, there may be a better one. (These are according to chessgames.com so usual caveats apply)

I've beaten George Ellison
Ellison has beaten Frank Parr
Parr has beaten John Littlewood
Littlewood has beaten Uhlmann
Uhlmann has beaten Fischer

[David Williams]

6 (7?) Morphy
5 Lasker
4 Capablanca, Alexhine
3 Fischer, Botvinnik
2 Kasparov, Karpov and many others

One of the enduring benefits of National Clubs & County wins, many years ago, over Nigel Short

I don't think you're quite getting the hang of this, at least for Morphy and Lasker! The best route has to be some old codger you beat when you were a teenager, not some teenager you beat when you were an old codger yourself. You're wasting fifty years! I'd wager that there is no-one at all that has played regularly at a halfway decent level for thirty or more years with a Morphy number higher than six.

[Ian Wallis]

Just as a matter of interest, when did James Sherwin beat Fischer. Big Base 2011 shows Sherwin with one draw and 7 losses.

It would be this one.
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044456

Normally chessgames.com is not to be trusted as a reliable source, but the comments refer back to the book by Robert Wade and Kevin O'Connell which contained all known RJF games.

The game quoted is not given in Wade/O'Connell in any detail but on the assumption it is game 205 then:
"205) R5: The result, opponent's name and score of this game are not available"
It also states that the tournament was " '50-50' - each had 50 minutes for the entire game" i.e. a rapidplay game and therefore does not qualify as a legitimate route for a Fischer number according to the initial post.

A bit like the Bacon number in acting or the Erdos number in Maths/Science, my colleague at Yorkshire Chess has suggested that we should try build up a database of links for a Fischer number - the chain links are people who have DEFEATED their opponents in standard play games, no rapid, blitz etc.

So nice try Jack

Mine's 2: I've beaten James Sherwin, who's beaten Fischer.

...but no cigar!!

Leaves the door open to more claimant's...

[IM Jack Rudd]

In that case, my Fischer number would be 3, via Williams and Korchnoi.

[David Robertson]

6 (7?) Morphy
5 Lasker
4 Capablanca, Alexhine
3 Fischer, Botvinnik
2 Kasparov, Karpov and many others

One of the enduring benefits of National Clubs & County wins, many years ago, over Nigel Short

I don't think you're quite getting the hang of this, at least for Morphy and Lasker! The best route has to be some old codger you beat when you were a teenager, not some teenager you beat when you were an old codger yourself. You're wasting fifty years! I'd wager that there is no-one at all that has played regularly at a halfway decent level for thirty or more years with a Morphy number higher than six.

Hang on a minute - who's making up the rules here? And why are you privileging second childhoods over first? And who are you calling 'an old codger'? I were no'but a lad (about town) when I beat Nigel. But I'm sure if you dig about a bit, you can get yourself an El Greco 3

Anyhow, never mind all that. I've been stirred to action by your challenge - and by the remarkable evidence that Jonathan Rogers (or anyone here, for that matter) has a Morphy 4. And Leonard Barden, a Morphy 3. That just seems astonishing! So I've played it by 'your' rules. And imagine my profound surprise, not to mention whoop-whoops of glee, to discover that I too have a Morphy 4

1965 David Robertson - W Ritson-Morry 1-0
1940 W Ritson-Morry - Mieses 1-0
1892 Paulsen - Mieses 0-1
1857 Paulsen - Morphy 1-0

[David Williams]

Congratulations. Told you my rules were better. And now, every time you lose to some snotty-nosed kid, you can smile benignly and bequeath a Morphy number of 5 upon him.

[Ian Wallis]

In that case, my Fischer number would be 3, via Williams and Korchnoi.

Nice one, I claim a 3 too:

Svetozar Gligoric +4 =8 -7
Owen Hindle 1-0 Svetozar Gligoric - Hastings 1964
Owen Hindle 0-1 Ian Wallis - National Club Championship 1977

[Ian Wallis]

Yep, let's do Botvinnik numbers instead

Although Leonard could almost certainly trump me there also!

Barden 1-0 Alexander Buxton 1950
Barden 1-0 Alexander Hastings 1953 (despite not knowing how to win the Lucena position)
Alexander 1-0 Botvinnik radio match 1946

How far back could you go? Leonard suggested Morphy numbers; I suppose you could go:

Botvinnik beat Lasker
Lasker beat Steinitz
Steinitz beat Anderssen
Anderssen beat Morphy...

Is there a shorter route ? Can anyone find a way to get to Philidor?

Not a shorter route but an alternative one:

Owen beat Morphy
Blackburn beat Owen
Capablanca beat Blackburn
Keres beat Capablanca
That should open up a few more opportunities.

As for Philidor...
Very problematic as most of his games were off hand and/or played at odds.
However, John Bruehl and George Atwell, more commonly known as a mathematician, allegedly beat him.

The following is pure conjecture as I have not verified it, I’ll leave that up to a more qualified historian.
Jonathan Wilson beat George Atwell
William Lewis beat Jonathan Wilson
Alexander McDowell beat William Lewis
La Bourdonnais beat Alexander McDowell
Jozsef Szen beat La Bourdonnais
Both Adolf Anderssen and Daniel Harrwitz (who incidentally also beat Morphy!) beat Jozsef Szen

The path is well trodden from here so over to someone else...

[Ben Purton]

I share a rating with Jack there, If I was allowed to use 5-min online games I could get nearly all players quite low through Ulf Andersson among lots of other more mature GM's.

[John Clarke]

Hi John

I certainly played at Charlton in 1973 but I don't recall our game. I would have been 12 at the time and don't have my old games but I did become and am still an FM. However it wasn't me who beat Lawrence in 1994 - that I guess would be Stuart C Brown, with whom I have exchanged a number of ELO points over the years.

But all is not lost. I can claim wins over N Short (1975) and M Adams (1981) in real games which may well reduce your number. Admittedly their combined age was about 18 but that is still allowed I guess?

Do post our game if you have it. I'll be able to confirm if it was me!

Hi Simon

Too many S Browns around, eh? My source for the Cooper game was here, which seemed pretty incontrovertible, but evidently that site too has its inaccuracies. Good to know the error probably doesn't affect my (potential) Fischer number!

I've PM'd you with the score of the Charlton game - not my worst effort by any means; just not really interesting enough to inflict on the forum, in my view.

[Greg Breed]

... I've been stirred to action by your challenge - and by the remarkable evidence that Jonathan Rogers (or anyone here, for that matter) has a Morphy 4. And Leonard Barden, a Morphy 3. That just seems astonishing! So I've played it by 'your' rules. And imagine my profound surprise, not to mention whoop-whoops of glee, to discover that I too have a Morphy 4

1965 David Robertson - W Ritson-Morry 1-0
1940 W Ritson-Morry - Mieses 1-0
1892 Paulsen - Mieses 0-1
1857 Paulsen - Morphy 1-0

I think the highlighted one is a typo David, but congratulations anyway. I don't think I've beaten anyone who has beaten anyone who has beaten someone famous!!

[Richard James]

According to BigBase, Mieses beat Wilfried Paulsen in 1892, and Louis Paulsen in 1889.

While I'm passing, James - Robertson 1:0 Major Open 1977 gives me a Morphy Number of 5, but alas David beat me in 18 moves the following year.

[David Robertson]

It seems to be my principal role these days to populate the realm with Morphy 5s. Glad to be of service, guys & gals

[John Saunders]

Bumping an old thread, but it might be useful for those seeking to improve their Morphy numbers...

I noticed today that the Wikipedia page on Morphy Numbers had Bob Wade in the Morphy Number 4 group. This was incorrect as Bob played two games against Tartakower in 1951 and 1953 (both discoverable on databases). Tartakower is Morphy Number 2 so that moves Bob Wade up a category into Morphy Number 3. I have corrected the Wikipedia page accordingly.

Given Bob's activity level over many decades in the UK, right up to his death in 2008, I suspect many rank and file British players will now inherit a Morphy number* of 4 via him.

I have also added Cenek Kottnauer and James M Aitken to the Morphy Number 3 group (both via Tartakower). This may help a good few others, particularly in Scotland, to move up to Morphy Number 4.

(* as defined by Wikipedia. Note that Wikipedia lists Morphy Numbers regardless of the results of games played. Much of the debate on this thread centres on Morphy/Fischer Numbers where the more recent players beat the predecessors in sequence.)

[Jonathan Rogers]

Alas, Philidor numbers never caught on.