Fischer Number

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John Moore
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Re: Fischer Number

Post by John Moore » Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:01 am

Just as a matter of interest, when did James Sherwin beat Fischer. Big Base 2011 shows Sherwin with one draw and 7 losses.

John Cooper, the Welsh IM, has a Fischer number of 2. He beat Najdorf at the Nice Olympiad in 1974 and Najdorf beat Fischer in the Piatigorsky Cup in 1966. That also means I have a Fischer number of 3 because I beat John at one of the old Ilford congresses many moons ago.
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John Moore
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Re: Fischer Number

Post by John Moore » Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:28 am

PeterFarr wrote:
Leonard Barden wrote:
Simon Ansell wrote:
Yep, let's do Botvinnik numbers instead :)

Although Leonard could almost certainly trump me there also!
Barden 1-0 Alexander Buxton 1950
Barden 1-0 Alexander Hastings 1953 (despite not knowing how to win the Lucena position)
Alexander 1-0 Botvinnik radio match 1946
How far back could you go? Leonard suggested Morphy numbers; I suppose you could go:

Botvinnik beat Lasker
Lasker beat Steinitz
Steinitz beat Anderssen
Anderssen beat Morphy...

Is there a shorter route ? Can anyone find a way to get to Philidor?
Using Najdorf above, you can go

Najdorf beat Tartakower
Tartakower beat Mieses
Mieses beat Louis Paulsen
Louis Paulsen beat Morphy

If I can count, that would give John Cooper a Morphy number of 5 and me one of 6, but I seem to recall Leonard saying that he beat Mieses which would give him a Morphy number of 3! Astonishing.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Fischer Number

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:03 am

John Moore wrote:Just as a matter of interest, when did James Sherwin beat Fischer. Big Base 2011 shows Sherwin with one draw and 7 losses.
It would be this one.
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044456

Normally chessgames.com is not to be trusted as a reliable source, but the comments refer back to the book by Robert Wade and Kevin O'Connell which contained all known RJF games.
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Leonard Barden
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Re: Fischer Number

Post by Leonard Barden » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:32 am

John Moore wrote:
Using Najdorf above, you can go

Najdorf beat Tartakower
Tartakower beat Mieses
Mieses beat Louis Paulsen
Louis Paulsen beat Morphy

If I can count, that would give John Cooper a Morphy number of 5 and me one of 6, but I seem to recall Leonard saying that he beat Mieses which would give him a Morphy number of 3! Astonishing.
See this Wikipedia article for Morphy numbers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphy_number

My Morphy number is 3 based on games played (I drew with Mieses at Hastings 1947-48) and 4 based on wins (I beat Tartakover in an offhand game at the then BCM editor's home in 1945).
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David Williams
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Re: Fischer Number

Post by David Williams » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:33 am

I once raised a query about CAS Damant, a strongish and active player for many years, in the hope of establishing that he had played Mieses, which would make me a Morphy 4. But I can at least claim through him, if only via a simul, an Alekhine number of 2.
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Krishna Shiatis
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Re: Fischer Number

Post by Krishna Shiatis » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:46 am

Can there be a variant of this which accommodates draws?

Also, do friendly games count?

If you have a variant which includes draws, I have a Rudd number of 2 and not sure who it links to, but Bob Wade gave me a draw in a friendly game once (I think he was being polite!)....:)
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Leonard Barden
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Re: Fischer Number

Post by Leonard Barden » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:22 am

Krishna Shiatis wrote:Can there be a variant of this which accommodates draws?

Also, do friendly games count?

If you have a variant which includes draws, I have a Rudd number of 2 and not sure who it links to, but Bob Wade gave me a draw in a friendly game once (I think he was being polite!)....:)
Krishna can claim a Fischer 2 based on RJF 0.5-RGW Havana 1965.....
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Simon Ansell
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Re: Fischer Number

Post by Simon Ansell » Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:36 pm

Leonard Barden wrote: My Morphy number is 4 based on wins (I beat Tartakover in an offhand game at the then BCM editor's home in 1945).
I'm claiming 5 based on wins then, as Bronstein beat Tartokower. Lots of people have beaten me, so 6 based on wins shouldn't be too hard for many forumites!
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Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Fischer Number

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:03 pm

I beat Milner-Barry in 1987 (possibly becoming the first player to try 1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 f3 e5!? in the process). Can I get a Morphy number of 5 through him?
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Leonard Barden
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Re: Fischer Number

Post by Leonard Barden » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:09 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:I beat Milner-Barry in 1987 (possibly becoming the first player to try 1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 f3 e5!? in the process). Can I get a Morphy number of 5 through him?
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1224064

That's Morphy 4
Last edited by Leonard Barden on Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Simon Ansell
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Re: Fischer Number

Post by Simon Ansell » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:12 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:I beat Milner-Barry in 1987 (possibly becoming the first player to try 1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 f3 e5!? in the process). Can I get a Morphy number of 5 through him?
Likely much better than five! Milner-Barry beat Znosko-Borovsky.

(edited to fix broken link)
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PeterFarr
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Location: Horsham, Sussex

Re: Fischer Number

Post by PeterFarr » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:16 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:I beat Milner-Barry in 1987 (possibly becoming the first player to try 1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 f3 e5!? in the process). Can I get a Morphy number of 5 through him?
Looks like you can get to 4:

Rogers beat Milner-Barry
Milner-Barry beat Mieses (Margate 1935, in a game starting 1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. d5 Ne5 5. f3)
Mieses beat Louis Paulsen
Louis Paulsen beat Morphy
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Krishna Shiatis
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Re: Fischer Number

Post by Krishna Shiatis » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:33 pm

Leonard Barden wrote:
Krishna Shiatis wrote:Can there be a variant of this which accommodates draws?

Also, do friendly games count?

If you have a variant which includes draws, I have a Rudd number of 2 and not sure who it links to, but Bob Wade gave me a draw in a friendly game once (I think he was being polite!)....:)
Krishna can claim a Fischer 2 based on RJF 0.5-RGW Havana 1965.....
LIKE! :)
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Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Fischer Number

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:07 pm

PeterFarr wrote:
Jonathan Rogers wrote:I beat Milner-Barry in 1987 (possibly becoming the first player to try 1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 f3 e5!? in the process). Can I get a Morphy number of 5 through him?
Looks like you can get to 4:

Rogers beat Milner-Barry
Milner-Barry beat Mieses (Margate 1935, in a game starting 1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. d5 Ne5 5. f3)
Mieses beat Louis Paulsen
Louis Paulsen beat Morphy
Oh excellent!

Now, who has the lowest Philidor number?
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David Robertson

Re: Fischer Number

Post by David Robertson » Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:46 pm

6 (7?) Morphy
5 Lasker
4 Capablanca, Alexhine
3 Fischer, Botvinnik
2 Kasparov, Karpov and many others

One of the enduring benefits of National Clubs & County wins, many years ago, over Nigel Short :)
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