The Latest GM/IM Norm Scam

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
Stewart Reuben
Posts: 3968
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: writer

Re: The Latest GM/IM Norm Scam

Post by Stewart Reuben » Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:14 pm

Vishy told me that he was unaware of the Miles - Christiansen epic when he made his blunder.

Leon Zukoff once transposed two moves against me, blundering a piece, which I didn't notice. So the game reverted to opening theory. But it was a blitz game. The notable thing about it was that the only kibbitzer was Bobby Fischer and he roared out laughing after the double blunder.

Geoff Chandler
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:36 pm
Location: Under Cover
Contact:

Re: The Latest GM/IM Norm Scam

Post by Geoff Chandler » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:27 pm

Hi John.

I paid good money for these jokes, that last one cost me two shillings and sixpence.

Hi Chris.

I'm pretty sure everyone knows that one.
I was thinking more in terms of a mainline opening book and the author then gives
a demo game with a slick dick finish not knowing the game had been concocted.

Hi Stewart.

Aw C'mon....You cannot just say that and not show the opening moves. :)

Zukoff played the c3 Sicilian, it was not an overlooked Qa?+ winning a Knight on e4 or e5 trick?
I've seen it work for either colour but mostly White.

Stewart Reuben
Posts: 3968
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: writer

Re: The Latest GM/IM Norm Scam

Post by Stewart Reuben » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:58 pm

I very much doubt you know that Zukoff.
You are asking a lot of my memory of a blitz game played 50 years ago. It may have been:
1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 g6 5 Nc3 Bg7 6 Bc4?? Nf6?? 7 Be3 transposing.
Of course Bobby wouldn't have started laughing after 6 Bc4, that would have alerted me to the blunder. It is not to be found on chessbase.

I know two very famous GMs who concocted a draw. But I may have been told that anecdote in confidence.
Look at the games of the Kosintseva sisters if you want to see pre-arranged draws. I think 1 e4 e5 draw agreed would be much better.

Geoff Chandler
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:36 pm
Location: Under Cover
Contact:

Re: The Latest GM/IM Norm Scam

Post by Geoff Chandler » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:53 pm

Hi Stewart.

I was just wondering if you could. Well done.
A rare simple hanging bit in the opening blunder but it has been played since.
Player's rushing the opening moves before their bum has warmed up their seat
and their mnd is not yet tuned into the game.

White has played Nc3, you play Nc3 in the Sicilian in answer to Nf6 it's an automatic move.
White has Nc3 on the board and a Knight on f6 in his mind.
Familiar Pattern Dis-Orientation ( FPD) is a common cause for blundering in experience players.
Everything looks as it normally does but there is one slight very important difference.
(that cocked up smothered mate in the 'I am a complete idiot!' thread is a good example.)
This is a more drastic example.

Pierre Fontaine (2131) - Koen Bossuyt (2114), Belgim 1989


White has just played 6.Bc4. Black played 6...Nxd4 0-1

A few days later Pierre Fontaine was seen sporting a brand new pair of £100 sneakers.... :)

Chris Rice
Posts: 2743
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:17 am

Re: The Latest GM/IM Norm Scam

Post by Chris Rice » Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:27 am

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Hi Chris.

I'm pretty sure everyone knows that one.
I was thinking more in terms of a mainline opening book and the author then gives
a demo game with a slick dick finish not knowing the game had been concocted.
Want something more original Geoff? Happy to supply a really great TN on move 2 from the 2010 "Cup of Don" ....


http://ratings.fide.com/pgn_chess_game. ... &pgn_game=

Here's another from the same tournament and look out for the "piece sac" by the 2400 player on move 9!


http://ratings.fide.com/pgn_chess_game. ... &pgn_game=

User avatar
Matt Mackenzie
Posts: 2838
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 pm
Location: Millom, Cumbria

Re: The Latest GM/IM Norm Scam

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:26 pm

2....Qh4 is an interesting novelty - I look forward to its being further tested :D

As for dropping material in a Sicilian by playing f4 at the wrong moment, I have seen it done before. Not generally speaking by 2400 rated players, though.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Geoff Chandler
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:36 pm
Location: Under Cover
Contact:

Re: The Latest GM/IM Norm Scam

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:01 pm

HI

I have 3 OTB games all dropping a piece on d4 in the exact same position.



Black has just played Qb6.
White perhaps was thinking the d4 Knight was held tactically with e5 and Bxh7+
not noticing, whilst the pawn was on f2, that Qxd4 is a CHECK!

Hoelzer - Fink Baden 1984
Mougan Gonzalez - Portela Gonzalez - Adolfo Pedrido Memorial 2006
Marizina - Khaybulin, Saratov.2009

So the game from the Don Cup (Don = Dodgy Obtained Norms) is a plausible error.
I've won 3 serious OTB games picking up a pinned bit on d4 after a thoughtless f4.
And don't forget this Don Cup appears to be jinxed.

As for 2...Qh4 in the Danish. The player Joao Simoes twice as Black mated in 4 moves in
the same same tournament in 2006.

Fabio Juliao -v- Joao Simoes and Nelson Costa -v-Joao Simoes, Porto District u-18 2006




Ficticious Football?

The game was actually played but because the reporter could not see the game
he made up what was going on during the game his only clues being the roars of the crowd.

The whole brilliant story is here. Hibs v Hearts New Years Day 1940.

http://essays-eve.blogspot.co.uk/2010/0 ... match.html

User avatar
Matt Mackenzie
Posts: 2838
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 pm
Location: Millom, Cumbria

Re: The Latest GM/IM Norm Scam

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:03 pm

Pedantically isn't it a Centre Game, not Danish?
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Chris Rice
Posts: 2743
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:17 am

Re: The Latest GM/IM Norm Scam

Post by Chris Rice » Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:10 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:HI

I have 3 OTB games all dropping a piece on d4 in the exact same position.



Black has just played Qb6.
White perhaps was thinking the d4 Knight was held tactically with e5 and Bxh7+
not noticing, whilst the pawn was on f2, that Qxd4 is a CHECK!

Hoelzer - Fink Baden 1984
Mougan Gonzalez - Portela Gonzalez - Adolfo Pedrido Memorial 2006
Marizina - Khaybulin, Saratov.2009

So the game from the Don Cup (Don = Dodgy Obtained Norms) is a plausible error.

I've won 3 serious OTB games picking up a pinned bit on d4 after a thoughtless f4.
And don't forget this Don Cup appears to be jinxed.

As for 2...Qh4 in the Danish. The player Joao Simoes twice as Black mated in 4 moves in
the same same tournament in 2006.

Fabio Juliao -v- Joao Simoes and Nelson Costa -v-Joao Simoes, Porto District u-18 2006




Ficticious Football?

The game was actually played but because the reporter could not see the game
he made up what was going on during the game his only clues being the roars of the crowd.

The whole brilliant story is here. Hibs v Hearts New Years Day 1940.

http://essays-eve.blogspot.co.uk/2010/0 ... match.html

The examples I gave were to indicate were from players whose grades were so high it seems implausible that they would have made such glaring blunders and played so badly and therefore are candidates to be 'thrown' games or were never played at all. These gamesand ones like them I suggest need to be investigated by FIDE. Just to refresh they were:

GM Shojaat Ghane (2368) v FM Sergey Tikhliy (2407)
IM Vladimir Mihalichenko (2396) - GM Shojaat Ghane (2368)

Perhaps when you did the database dump you didn't check the grades?

Hoelzer (1727) - Fink (2146) Baden 1984
Mougan Gonzalez (1883) - Portela Gonzalez (unrated) - Adolfo Pedrido Memorial 2006
Marizina (1778) - Khaybulin (no trace of a rating), Saratov.2009
Fabio Juliao (unrated) -v- Joao Simoes (2019) and Nelson Costa (unrated) -v-Joao Simoes (2019), Porto District u-18 2006

So the players in these examples who made the mistakes were all seemingly very weak players and so the games can be considered to be plausible.

User avatar
IM Jack Rudd
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:13 am
Location: Bideford

Re: The Latest GM/IM Norm Scam

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:19 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:Pedantically isn't it a Centre Game, not Danish?
It isn't either, really - it only becomes one or the other after white's response to 2...exd4.

Geoff Chandler
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:36 pm
Location: Under Cover
Contact:

Re: The Latest GM/IM Norm Scam

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:40 pm

Hi Chris

I did see the lower grades and agree players graded so high should not really
make such blunders. But they do happen. (thankfully).
I'd swither on that evidence (though it does appear very dodgy indeed.)

Perhaps I am crediting these guys with too much imagination.
The trouble being if I was going to throw a game I would not make the blunder so obvious.
We would select any well known theorectical postion 20 moves in and play from there.
I'd drop a pawn (normal for me) skitter about a bit (again normal) and resign.
(Hmmm...reading that last sentence it appears I have thrown all my games.) ;)

Yes The Danish is wrong.
It's actually a way of getting into a Scotch (3.Nf3) without seeing a Petrov or Latvian.

Stewart Reuben
Posts: 3968
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: writer

Re: The Latest GM/IM Norm Scam

Post by Stewart Reuben » Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:27 pm

Kramnik allowed mate in 1 in a playable position.
Kasparov resigned in a game against The Machine and then complained that there was cheating.
I don't see how FIDE can act on the examples given above by strong players.
I was having dinner with Ulf Andersson and Jan Timman. Ulf had just played Karpov in the Phillips & Drew 1984 - I think. We said to him, 'It must have been a pre-arranged draw'. 'Why?' 'Because you failed to win a pawn in an obvious manner'.
We went over the game without a set. Ulf was staggered that he had failed to notice. It wasn't even a combination.

The mistakes are all there, waiting to be made.

Geoff Chandler
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:36 pm
Location: Under Cover
Contact:

Re: The Latest GM/IM Norm Scam

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:40 pm

Hi Stewart,

I agree, very hard to prove a thrown game with a one off blunder.
As I said, I would swither on that one.

So where are we currently at in the Paranoia Stakes?

If you are 2200 and play very good moves you are cheating.
If you are 2500 and dropping pieces to known tactical themes then you are throwing games.

All we need is Boris Ivanov playing in the Don Cup and the wots it will hit the fan.

The only piece of real evidence that there has been anything going on (or not going on)
is the exact move for move replication of 6 computer games appearing in the Opening Post.
That does indeed look fishy.

Could have been a glich in the database. It happens.
When the games hit the main DB they got mix up (somehow) with the computer games.
I have games on the Mega-Data base played by some poor lad called Guy Willis Chandler (most are losses)
I played these games.

More recently.......and I am having a great deal of fun with this in the next issue of the Scottish Chess Magazine.

Jones - Gormally Scottish Ch 2013.

You can see the final position on the live board here.

http://rs8.blueapricot.com/scottish/2013/r2/tfd.htm

The Gormally - Jones game from Round two. The final position, which will appear in DataBases.



Black has just played 35....Ke5 and the game was agreed a draw. (White has mate in one)

Mathew Turner reckons one of the players put the Kings on e5 and d4 to signal a draw.and the live board picked up on Ke5.

I reckon, (I'm hoping) that Danny spotted an opportunity for a gag and after the game was agreed drawn on
White's 35th move played 35...Ke5 for a laugh.

Either way in 10 years time someone will be doing a book of GM blunders and next to Kramniks missed mate in one
will be Jones - Gormally Scottish Ch 2013.

Chris Rice
Posts: 2743
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:17 am

Re: The Latest GM/IM Norm Scam

Post by Chris Rice » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:04 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:Kramnik allowed mate in 1 in a playable position.
Kasparov resigned in a game against The Machine and then complained that there was cheating.
I don't see how FIDE can act on the examples given above by strong players.
I was having dinner with Ulf Andersson and Jan Timman. Ulf had just played Karpov in the Phillips & Drew 1984 - I think. We said to him, 'It must have been a pre-arranged draw'. 'Why?' 'Because you failed to win a pawn in an obvious manner'.
We went over the game without a set. Ulf was staggered that he had failed to notice. It wasn't even a combination.

The mistakes are all there, waiting to be made.
This is precisely the point I made earlier in the thread. If a 2400+ player as White plays 1 g4 e6 2 f3 Qh4 mate 0-1 it doesn't constitute proof of throwing a game. In the absence of other evidence any explanation pretty much has to be believed such as "I wasn't paying attention" or "it was a finger fehler" or "I'm just in poor form at the moment" and who knows these explanations could be true. Kramnik did miss a mate in 1. However, you might want to then start looking at the player's other games and behaviours. if Kramnik was Black and the game started 1 e4 e5 2 d4 Qh4 and then he lost a piece in less than 10 moves I'm betting a few eyebrows would be raised.

Illegal activities are often detected by starting with hunches or a feeling that "that things just don't look right" and after a bit of investigative probing all sort of things come to the surface. However, up to now I haven't seen much will on the part of FIDE to follow up on these anomalies. Let's hope they are taking such matters more seriously in future.

Surprised that the Kasparov game was used as an example. Was it that obvious he had missed a draw? It's shrouded in controversy. Here's an example of arguments there there was no forced draw http://www.chess.com/forum/view/game-an ... -deep-blue

Martin Crichton
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:25 pm

Re: The Latest GM/IM Norm Scam

Post by Martin Crichton » Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:54 am

So what are FIDE doing about it? Are they retracting norms and titles when cases of cheating have been exposed?
Member of "the strongest amateur chess club in London" (Cavendish)

my views are not representative of any clubs or organisations.

Post Reply