Kramnik's latest game

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Mats Winther
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Kramnik's latest game

Post by Mats Winther » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:16 am

From Chessbase.com. It's a remarkable game. I'm amazed that it works. Perhaps one should sacrifice the exchange more often.


Ray Sayers

Re: Kramnik's latest game

Post by Ray Sayers » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:19 am

Nice!

Kramnik isn't known as 'Mr. Interesting Chess', yet Petrosian also was very fond of sacrificing the exchange!

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Kramnik's latest game

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:22 am

Ray Sayers wrote:Nice!

Kramnik isn't known as 'Mr. Interesting Chess' ....
depends who you ask ;-)

Was it Rowson who said something along the lines of the difference between the good player and the average one being most clearly shown in willingness to sacrifice the exchange?

Ray Sayers

Re: Kramnik's latest game

Post by Ray Sayers » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:29 am

Oh, don't get me wrong. In my opinion, Kramnik is a magnificent player.

I just think many people think his play still is (was!) dull. He has reinvented himself very well. But his games and notes are very deep and impressive.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Kramnik's latest game

Post by Geoff Chandler » Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:37 pm

A bog standard exchange sac to open up a King.
It's the kind of move you play without lookng at all the ramifications. It's messy so you just play it.
Is it because this kind of punt is not Kramniks normal style that makes it so interesting.
Nice touch with Qa1 though.

How come everytime someone somewhere sacs the exchange Perosian's name pops up.

Are they saying it because they know something or are they just saying what someone else has said in the past?

This needed investigating.

I know the game in question was Rook takes Bishop but the exchage sac Rook takes Knight
is the one that is usually glued to Petrosian.

So I fired up the old DB looking for games played where Rook x Knight was played and the player tossing in the Rook won.

Petrosian as White has 15 Wins
Petrosian as Black has 9 wins

So Petrosian has played RxN winning 24 times. Good.

Pick a GM. This is an English forum so pick an English GM.....Mark Hebden

Mark as White has 27 wins
Mark as Black has 22 wins.

So Mark has played RxN winning 49 times. Even better. (And not doubt Mark will be adding to that total.)

(I even beat Petrosian though ½ of mind are totally unsound.)

Andrew Bak
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Re: Kramnik's latest game

Post by Andrew Bak » Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:49 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:A bog standard exchange sac to open up a King.
It's the kind of move you play without lookng at all the ramifications. It's messy so you just play it.
Is it because this kind of punt is not Kramniks normal style that makes it so interesting.
Nice touch with Qa1 though.

How come everytime someone somewhere sacs the exchange Perosian's name pops up.

Are they saying it because they know something or are they just saying what someone else has said in the past?

This needed investigating.

I know the game in question was Rook takes Bishop but the exchage sac Rook takes Knight
is the one that is usually glued to Petrosian.

So I fired up the old DB looking for games played where Rook x Knight was played and the player tossing in the Rook won.

Petrosian as White has 15 Wins
Petrosian as Black has 9 wins

So Petrosian has played RxN winning 24 times. Good.

Pick a GM. This is an English forum so pick an English GM.....Mark Hebden

Mark as White has 27 wins
Mark as Black has 22 wins.

So Mark has played RxN winning 49 times. Even better. (And not doubt Mark will be adding to that total.)

(I even beat Petrosian though ½ of mind are totally unsound.)
I've seen a video series on Petrosian's exchange sacrifices and a lot of them were to get out of bad positions and achieve a draw through activity or some blockading device.

The exchange sacrifice that Kramnik did cannot really be related to Petrosian's style of play - Kramnik's sacrifice was one based on intuition to play for an attack, not really for positional considerations.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Kramnik's latest game

Post by Geoff Chandler » Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:03 pm

Hi Andrew.

"The exchange sacrifice that Kramnik did cannot really be related to Petrosian's style of play..."

I know, that is what I'm going on about. Someone sacs the Ox and up pops Petrosian.

"I've seen a video series on Petrosian's exchange sacrifices..."

What we need is Mark Hebden's exchange sac videos. :)

Ray Sayers

Re: Kramnik's latest game

Post by Ray Sayers » Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:46 pm

Your DB is inaccurate.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chesscol ... id=1013349

Is a selection of Petrosian's exchange sacs, containing 18 Black wins.

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Mats Winther
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Re: Kramnik's latest game

Post by Mats Winther » Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:47 pm

The point is that Petrosian invented a completely new motif for the exchange sacrifice. It was a positional sacrifice that served the purpose of invading with the pieces on the diagonals that were weakened by the sacrifice.

Petrosian's style is still a mystery. That's why his name still pops up. There were many GM's that were equally strong, but who are never mentioned, because there was nothing special about them. But Petrosian won games against super-GMs in a very peculiar way. He invented a new positional method that is still not fully understood. It has something to do with slowly acquiring the control over important squares and strangling the opponent.
/Mats

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Kramnik's latest game

Post by Geoff Chandler » Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:16 am

Hi Ray.

First two I looked at in the that link where RxB ex-sacs. I was showing doing RxN. I did not look at any further.
(MY DB is out of date, I stopped adding to it in 2010.)

My point being Kramnik's Rxf6 was not a classical Petrosian type ex-sac, (it's a coffee house sac) :wink:
Tal would have had that Bishop off the board before his opponent had pressed his clock.

There must be a new book of Kramniks games coming out, his publisher's have
told him to sac something every now then.
Next month he will play a greek gift Bxh7+ sac and the world will hold it's breath in amazement.

Anytime someone sacs an exchange for what ever reason then it's tagged shades of Petrosian.

Why not shades of Philidor?

François André Philidor - NN. 1749


Hi Mats.

Correct, though I would not say Petrosian invented it (see above) , I'd say he understood it more.

I've been told Petrosian is a beautiful chess engima when it comes to computers.
When they first started using these things to look at famous players games Petrosian scored low.
As the computers got better so Petrosian's score got higher.
Maybe Rybka 32 will sus him out.

As I said I've been told this though I see no reason to disbelieve this. It does however make sense.

Tried to come to grips with Petrosian (him and Korchnoi are impossible (for me) to tag.)
Read a few books. I Think Clarke's book comes the closest to explaning Petrosian to a layman.
Pity Reinfeld passed away just as Petrosian was becoming World Champion.
Reinfeld imho did a good de-cloaking job on Nimzovitch in Hypermodern Chess.

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: Kramnik's latest game

Post by Carl Hibbard » Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:22 am

Mats Winther wrote:From Chessbase.com. It's a remarkable game. I'm amazed that it works. Perhaps one should sacrifice the exchange more often.
Please try to 'quote' the original URL we should always try to do this when copying an article from somewhere else :!:

It could be this one?
http://chessbase.com/Home/TabId/211/Pos ... 30813.aspx
Last edited by Carl Hibbard on Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Possible URL added.
Cheers
Carl Hibbard

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