Zero move game: should it be graded?

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
John Upham
Posts: 4956
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:29 am
Location: Cove, Hampshire, England.
Contact:

Zero move game: should it be graded?

Post by John Upham » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:35 pm

Quick question for the graders (and anyone else I suppose) out there:

If a local league game is recorded as a draw when zero moves have been played, should it be included in a grading submission?
British Chess News : britishchessnews.com
Twitter: @BritishChess
Facebook: facebook.com/groups/britishchess :D

Sean Hewitt
Posts: 2190
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:45 pm

John Upham wrote:Quick question for the graders (and anyone else I suppose) out there:

If a local league game is recorded as a draw when zero moves have been played, should it be included in a grading submission?
You need to give more details, such as did the two players actually arrive and simply agree a draw before a move wss played (ala Reuben Miles) or is something else going on.

John Upham
Posts: 4956
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:29 am
Location: Cove, Hampshire, England.
Contact:

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Post by John Upham » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:58 pm

My understanding is that the two players both arrived at the playing venue.

(As far as I know) they did not sit down at the board: I believe the draw was agreed at this stage and the draw offerer then left for a meeting elsewhere.
British Chess News : britishchessnews.com
Twitter: @BritishChess
Facebook: facebook.com/groups/britishchess :D

Geoff Chandler
Posts: 2388
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:36 pm
Location: Under Cover
Contact:

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Post by Geoff Chandler » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:05 pm

Given the above circumstances, yes it should be graded. Why not?

Barry Sandercock
Posts: 1356
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:52 am

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Post by Barry Sandercock » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:54 pm

I agree. If a games is agreed a draw, it is included in the tournament score and regardless of the number of moves ( or non-moves ) should be graded I would think.

John Upham
Posts: 4956
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:29 am
Location: Cove, Hampshire, England.
Contact:

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Post by John Upham » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:02 pm

Is the reliability of grade calculations compromised by having games graded that did not take place?
British Chess News : britishchessnews.com
Twitter: @BritishChess
Facebook: facebook.com/groups/britishchess :D

Barry Sandercock
Posts: 1356
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:52 am

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Post by Barry Sandercock » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:11 pm

If it was good enough for Tony Miles and Stewart Reuben in Luton 1975, It's good enough for me !

MartinCarpenter
Posts: 2680
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Post by MartinCarpenter » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:19 pm

Why an issue with reliability? If someone is prone to agreeing really early draws (for whatever reason) then it obviously affects their results, and so should affect their grade.

Only an issue if people are making the games up etc.

Sean Hewitt
Posts: 2190
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:58 pm

If they had sat down at the board after their discussion and played 10 moves, that wouldn't have really changed anything, except that we wouldn't be having this discussion. The players have agreed the game is a draw, it is a draw, and should be graded as a draw!

IanDavis
Posts: 255
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:41 pm

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Post by IanDavis » Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:17 pm

Money is money. Grading is not a an assessment of the strength of a player, it is an assessment of his financial yield.

User avatar
David Shepherd
Posts: 863
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:46 pm

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Post by David Shepherd » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:20 pm

In my opinion based on the facts so far, in my opinion it should not be graded nor counted it should be a double default. The game does not appear to have started so I don't see how it could be drawn. If a clock was started then ok, but if that didn't happen then in my opinion the game was never started if no move was made.

User avatar
Matt Mackenzie
Posts: 3517
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 pm
Location: Millom, Cumbria

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:21 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:If they had sat down at the board after their discussion and played 10 moves, that wouldn't have really changed anything, except that we wouldn't be having this discussion. The players have agreed the game is a draw, it is a draw, and should be graded as a draw!
Or even 1 move. A "game" in the Cumbrian Championships a few years ago went 1d4 Nf6 Draw Agreed :)

(in the last round between two players who were desperate to get away - and, indeed, only went as far as that because they weren't sure 0 moves would be graded)
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

John McKenna
Posts: 4326
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Post by John McKenna » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:45 pm

John Upham wrote:Is the reliability of grade calculations compromised by having games graded that did not take place?
John, the reliability of the grading system is compromised as soon as you grade any game. (The Heisenberg uncertainty principle has been known for some time now.)
Grading games in which no less than one or more than two half moves have been played might actually improve the reliability of grading, but I am not sure 'bout that.

I do think that null games in which less than the (mandatory?) one half move exists are unwholesome and should be void.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

Kevin Thurlow
Posts: 4106
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:53 am

If the league has accepted the result as a draw, then it should be graded. If they decided not to count the result, e.g. defaulting one or both players, then that is a different matter.

Jonathan Bryant
Posts: 3250
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:15 am

Barry Sandercock wrote:If it was good enough for Tony Miles and Stewart Reuben in Luton 1975, It's good enough for me !

Weren't they both defaulted for that game, though? Or is my memory faulty (very possible these days)

Post Reply