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Zero move game: should it be graded?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:35 pm
by John Upham
Quick question for the graders (and anyone else I suppose) out there:

If a local league game is recorded as a draw when zero moves have been played, should it be included in a grading submission?

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:45 pm
by Sean Hewitt
John Upham wrote:Quick question for the graders (and anyone else I suppose) out there:

If a local league game is recorded as a draw when zero moves have been played, should it be included in a grading submission?
You need to give more details, such as did the two players actually arrive and simply agree a draw before a move wss played (ala Reuben Miles) or is something else going on.

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:58 pm
by John Upham
My understanding is that the two players both arrived at the playing venue.

(As far as I know) they did not sit down at the board: I believe the draw was agreed at this stage and the draw offerer then left for a meeting elsewhere.

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:05 pm
by Geoff Chandler
Given the above circumstances, yes it should be graded. Why not?

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:54 pm
by Barry Sandercock
I agree. If a games is agreed a draw, it is included in the tournament score and regardless of the number of moves ( or non-moves ) should be graded I would think.

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:02 pm
by John Upham
Is the reliability of grade calculations compromised by having games graded that did not take place?

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:11 pm
by Barry Sandercock
If it was good enough for Tony Miles and Stewart Reuben in Luton 1975, It's good enough for me !

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:19 pm
by MartinCarpenter
Why an issue with reliability? If someone is prone to agreeing really early draws (for whatever reason) then it obviously affects their results, and so should affect their grade.

Only an issue if people are making the games up etc.

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:58 pm
by Sean Hewitt
If they had sat down at the board after their discussion and played 10 moves, that wouldn't have really changed anything, except that we wouldn't be having this discussion. The players have agreed the game is a draw, it is a draw, and should be graded as a draw!

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:17 pm
by IanDavis
Money is money. Grading is not a an assessment of the strength of a player, it is an assessment of his financial yield.

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:20 pm
by David Shepherd
In my opinion based on the facts so far, in my opinion it should not be graded nor counted it should be a double default. The game does not appear to have started so I don't see how it could be drawn. If a clock was started then ok, but if that didn't happen then in my opinion the game was never started if no move was made.

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:21 pm
by Matt Mackenzie
Sean Hewitt wrote:If they had sat down at the board after their discussion and played 10 moves, that wouldn't have really changed anything, except that we wouldn't be having this discussion. The players have agreed the game is a draw, it is a draw, and should be graded as a draw!
Or even 1 move. A "game" in the Cumbrian Championships a few years ago went 1d4 Nf6 Draw Agreed :)

(in the last round between two players who were desperate to get away - and, indeed, only went as far as that because they weren't sure 0 moves would be graded)

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:45 pm
by John McKenna
John Upham wrote:Is the reliability of grade calculations compromised by having games graded that did not take place?
John, the reliability of the grading system is compromised as soon as you grade any game. (The Heisenberg uncertainty principle has been known for some time now.)
Grading games in which no less than one or more than two half moves have been played might actually improve the reliability of grading, but I am not sure 'bout that.

I do think that null games in which less than the (mandatory?) one half move exists are unwholesome and should be void.

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:53 am
by Kevin Thurlow
If the league has accepted the result as a draw, then it should be graded. If they decided not to count the result, e.g. defaulting one or both players, then that is a different matter.

Re: Zero move game: should it be graded?

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:15 am
by Jonathan Bryant
Barry Sandercock wrote:If it was good enough for Tony Miles and Stewart Reuben in Luton 1975, It's good enough for me !

Weren't they both defaulted for that game, though? Or is my memory faulty (very possible these days)