Possession of (or by) Mobile Phones

[John Townsend]

What guarantee can there be that a mobile remains switched off?

[Roger de Coverly]

What guarantee can there be that a mobile remains switched off?

If you so distrust your opponent, that you cannot take his word, various solutions are possible. Removing the battery is one possibility. handing the phone to a third party when away from the board is another.

I would be fairly sure that for reasons of practicality, evening leagues and internal club competitions will decide that lesser penalty equates to no penalty, or will set aside the entire paragraph as a number currently do anyway. Congresses have yet to show their hands. A residential Congress like e2e4 could in principle have a rule that the phone stays in the room. This is disadvantageous to those not staying at the hotel, particularly those travelling by public transport or those checking out before completion of the tournament.

[John Townsend]

Roger de Coverly said:

If you so distrust your opponent, that you cannot take his word, various solutions are possible. Removing the battery is one possibility. handing the phone to a third party when away from the board is another.

It may be hard to have much trust in an opponent who is a stranger. There are cash prizes at congresses. Neither of Roger's solutions strikes me as practical, and I don't think that the opponent of the owner of a mobile should be troubled with having to help police the situation. It is simpler to disallow possession of a mobile.

[Roger de Coverly]

It is simpler to disallow possession of a mobile.

It is certainly simpler, the problem being that for many players it would also disallow the existence of the match or tournament as far as their participation was concerned. It's the same argument about why zero default time was such a stupid idea for amateur chess.

[Geoff Chandler]

Hi

Organisers supply the board, pieces, clocks, scoresheets....
Why not place a shoe box next to each board, then players can unload
the contents of their pockets into the box and take them back out after the game.

After emptying their pockets the players then go to the tournamnet scales.
If their weight does not match up with their published FIDE weight then they have
obviously not put everything in the shoe box and lose by default.

I am getting a bit fed up coming up with solutions for you lot.
Please think things through before you post.

[John Townsend]

Oh, yes, very good, Geoff. I don't know why Roger didn't think of that. By the way, where does the shoe box live during the game?

[Stewart Reuben]

In an evening league match somebody's phone makes a sound. People hiss at him. That is a penalty. Being scolded by your match captain is a penalty. I like the idea of a fine, but who will collect it if there is no arbiter present?

I don't know the technology. Does it damage the equipment to remove the battery, show your opponent that you have done so and then replace it on leaving the venue? There is no doubt many phones may make a sound although completely switched off. Low battery warning or pre-set alarms are examples.

[Paolo Casaschi]

I don't know the technology. Does it damage the equipment to remove the battery, show your opponent that you have done so and then replace it on leaving the venue?

Most phone allow you to remove the battery easily with no possible damage to the phone.
However, some phones are sealed and it's not possible for the user to remove the battery, for example the Apple iPhone that is very popular and has a lot of very powerful chess applications available.

[MartinCarpenter]

It probably isn't even most phones anymore Certainly not of the 'worrying' ones.

[Greg Breed]

I don't know the technology. Does it damage the equipment to remove the battery, show your opponent that you have done so and then replace it on leaving the venue?

Most phone allow you to remove the battery easily with no possible damage to the phone.
However, some phones are sealed and it's not possible for the user to remove the battery, for example the Apple iPhone that is very popular and has a lot of very powerful chess applications available.

It probably isn't even most phones anymore Certainly not of the 'worrying' ones.

This is correct. Most modern smartphones are sealed and impossible to remove the battery without invalidating the warranty at the very least. My phone requires such a tiny screwdriver that i cannot even see the screw heads!

[Roger de Coverly]

I'm not sure we are any nearer knowing whether "lesser penalty" equates to "no penalty".

The Australians have been discussing this recently.
http://www.chesschat.org/showthread.php ... -violation

Apart from the one guy who thinks "rules is rules" and would rather have no-one turn up than bend them, it seems Australian local events are currently more tolerant than British ones.

If there anything to prevent the current British tournament standard (slightly modified) being continued?
(a) you can have a mobile phone or electronic device with you during the game
(b) it must be stitched off no later than the start of the game and remain so throughout the game
(c) if it makes a noise you lose
(d) if you are seen using it you lose
(e) if you are seen consulting chess software on it, you lose and at the very least you are expelled from the tournament.

For leagues, you can give leniency on (c), but you must switch it off if left on inadvertently. Also there is a case for allowing match captains to leave the playing area to attempt to contact late arrivals.

It's a decision by the ECF as to whether it would grade a domestic event run to those rules. The initial policing of internationally rated chess is by the IRO who is appointed by the ECF.

[NickFaulks]

I'm not sure we are any nearer knowing whether "lesser penalty" equates to "no penalty".

I don't understand this confusion, but would people be happy if the wording were "The rules of a competition may specify a different, less severe, penalty, in accordance with Article 12.9"? To me, this is implied anyway.

[E Michael White]

the rule says:-

11.3.b.

• During play, a player is forbidden to have a mobile phone and/or other electronic means of communication in the playing venue. If it is evident that a player brought such a device into the playing venue, he shall lose the game. The opponent shall win.
  The rules of a competition may specify a different, less severe, penalty.

To me this reads as two separate statements

The first statement says it is forbidden to have a mobile in the playing venue but no exact penalty is specified, as the penalty is mentioned only in the second sentence or statement and applies to bringing the phone in rather than being in possession of one. For having a mobile in the playing venue, the arbiter should choose a penalty from 12.9 which would be a loss or al least a warning . As it is stated as strictly forbidden it should be expected that if a warning is given then if the player continues to keep the phone in his possession he must be declared to have lost the game.

The second statement says that if a player brought the phone into the playing venue he shall lose or the lower penalty specified will be applied. This does not seem to me to allow the player to continue to keep the phone in his possession in the playing venue as the first statement seems to be separate and covered by a different penalty.

The most common situation will probably be that a player forgets to leave his phone outside or with someone else and would pay the fine if that is specifeid on the event rules but it seems to me the rule then requires him to put the phone in his car or give it to someone else.

[NickFaulks]

I suppose you can read it that way, although it was not the intention of the people who wrote the regulation. In any case it seems unlikely that the current wording will survive Tromso. Some members of this forum have even put their views to FIDE, where the relevant Commissions are taking them into account.

[Roger de Coverly]

The most common situation will probably be that a player forgets to leave his phone outside or with someone else and would pay the fine if that is specifeid on the event rules but it seems to me the rule then requires him to put the phone in his car or give it to someone else.

It's a possible interpretation. Non-rated leagues therefore would just set aside the entire rule, provided the ECF didn't also insist on it as a condition of grading. If you did anything else you are announcing the closure of your league. Similarly with a weekend Congress.

The problem is then faced by would be organisers of FIDE rated events. If they announce that possession of a mobile phone will result in the loss of the game, have they just excluded all potential players not in a position to comply? That also includes hotel guests, if they are yet to check in, or have yet to check out.