Dealing with a crisis as a captain

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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Dealing with a crisis as a captain

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:10 am

David Blower wrote: A spectator from Warley Quinborne approached myself to confirm if I was the captain of the Brewood team. After I confirmed I was the spectator told me that my player was not notating. At the time our player had about 25 minutes left of his time limit.
The underlying rules are straightforward enough. You have keep score unless there are only five minutes remaining to the next time control or the end of the game. Where leagues differ is on the enforcement of this. Some would make it the opponent's responsibility, others would have the captains take a role. There's also a principle of non-interference by third parties or spectators which some Leagues adopt.

David Blower
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Re: Dealing with a crisis as a captain

Post by David Blower » Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:28 am

I suppose what I am asking is does a captain in a game where no arbiters are present count as an arbiter themselves, according to the FIDE laws of chess?

Hopefully I can learn from the experience so I can deal with any situation better next time. Overall I have enjoyed being the captain of one of my club teams.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Dealing with a crisis as a captain

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:21 am

David Blower wrote:I suppose what I am asking is does a captain in a game where no arbiters are present count as an arbiter themselves, according to the FIDE laws of chess?
I don't believe the FIDE laws of chess have any such provision, although some leagues will give some powers to captains. You need a distinction if the League uses a quick-play finish so that players are certain that play will cease if they make a claim.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Dealing with a crisis as a captain

Post by LawrenceCooper » Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:00 am

David Shepherd wrote:In one match I played in (whilst still at school) our team captain had to decide what to do when a disturbance broke out in the pub below. Both captains discussed what to do and decided all we could do was lock the door and carry on the match, (there were no volunteers for checking out what was happening). When we left I seem to remember there wasn't much glass left intact in the pub including the windows), and there was a reasonable amount of blood around too :( I haven't got a clue what happened in the match but I don't think there were too many quick finishes.
Was there an ECF meeting downstairs? :roll:

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Dealing with a crisis as a captain

Post by Stewart Reuben » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:26 am

David Blower, you were faced with a difficult situation. You did the best you could and there should be no criticism of your handling of the incident.
The spectator should not have interfered. I doubt he would have done so if it had been his team member who failed to keep score. {As an aside. I have recently been trying to teach FIDE people the difference between interference and intervention.}

The spectator if he insisted on interfering should have spoken to his match captain, who he presumably knew. And asked to speak to both match captains privately. You have not told us whether you were playing, or had finished.
The League may have a rule that the 2 captains can act in concert as arbiters. In the absence of such a rule, they would have had to decide whether to intervene, or leave well alone.
Had the 2 of you decided to intervene, you should have stopped the clock and told your player he had to keep score. But what to do about the moves that had not been recorded? Probably the best thing would have been for him to leave sufficient space on the scoresheet to fill in the missing moves as best he could when he had time. When again settled down, your player's clock be restarted. The 2 captains might even have discreetly helped him.
The opposing match captain had no right to restart your player's clock without first consulting you. But your player was already in the wrong. Personally I would not exact a large penalty on somebody infringing the Laws where the situation has arisen due to a different incorrect action. {Some would disagree with me about this.}
You asked whether it made a different that your player's opponent is a junior. How could that possibly be answered without knowing the age of the junior? It might be quite different if 7 years old rather than 17.

It must also be remembered that my comments are based solely on what you have written. With the best will in the world, you might still not have expressed matters accurately. After all, there are at least 2 points you haven't explained.

David Blower
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Re: Dealing with a crisis as a captain

Post by David Blower » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:26 pm

The league rules just say that the FIDE laws of chess apply. There is nothing specifically about what team captains can do, in the league rules.

I had finished playing myself. The team captain of Warley Quinborne was graded too highly for the competition, so was also not playing as well.

The spectator DID inform his team captain (I thought I had explained that) but it was the captain, and NOT the spectator that interfered himself.

The junior was according to the ECF grading database 13 years old. It is possible since then he is now 14, but I would not know that.

Finally sorry if any aspects of any of my posts are unclear. To a certain extent you would have had to have been there to know what happened anyway, and I do accept I am only putting one point of view across. I would have preferred the incident to have being handled differently, but there you go.

David Blower
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Re: Dealing with a crisis as a captain

Post by David Blower » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:38 pm

For the record, I was under the assumption that the team captain would only need to sort out disputes BETWEEN the 2 players.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Dealing with a crisis as a captain

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:14 am

RE: non-involvement of spectators.

Would it be considered appropriate for spectators to film blitz finishes of games on their phones in case reconstruction evidence is required? I’m talking about situations where an arbiter is not present.

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Dealing with a crisis as a captain

Post by Stewart Reuben » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:21 pm

Jonathan > Would it be considered appropriate for spectators to film blitz finishes of games on their phones in case reconstruction evidence is required? I’m talking about situations where an arbiter is not present.<

They would have to have permission to use their mobile phones. From whom would they get that with no arbiter present? It would be better to use a video camera. That is permitted, provided it is soundless. The reason for doing so need only be interest. But it would be highly questionable where juniors are playing. I have also made it clear that I was not to be filmed when TV were at a poker event when I was still a teacher.The British Championships mention that recording may take place. Thus, it would probably be better if there were a local league rule.

I have used live recording as arbiter as an additional help.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Dealing with a crisis as a captain

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:51 am

I have seen a spectator recording the game where both players are very short of time. This could have helped if there had been a dispute, (assuming both players agreed it was accurate) but I think it was mainly as he knew his club colleague would ideally want a record of all the moves.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Dealing with a crisis as a captain

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:58 am

Stewart Reuben wrote:Jonathan > Would it be considered appropriate for spectators to film blitz finishes of games on their phones in case reconstruction evidence is required? I’m talking about situations where an arbiter is not present.<

They would have to have permission to use their mobile phones. From whom would they get that with no arbiter present? It would be better to use a video camera.
Ah yes, good point. But I’m willing to bet nobody has ever routinely brought a video camera to a chess club.

Paul Buswell
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Re: Dealing with a crisis as a captain

Post by Paul Buswell » Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:40 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:I have seen a spectator recording the game where both players are very short of time. This could have helped if there had been a dispute, (assuming both players agreed it was accurate) but I think it was mainly as he knew his club colleague would ideally want a record of all the moves.
As a captain I have from time to time recorded in circumstances where both players were very short of time. I do this on my own initiative and try to keep the fact that I am doing it hidden from the players, although that is hard to do. I do this partly in case of a dispute later, partly so my player has the moves if they want them.

PB

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Anthony Higgs
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Re: Dealing with a crisis as a captain

Post by Anthony Higgs » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:20 am

Paul Buswell wrote:
As a captain I have from time to time recorded in circumstances where both players were very short of time. I do this on my own initiative and try to keep the fact that I am doing it hidden from the players, although that is hard to do. I do this partly in case of a dispute later, partly so my player has the moves if they want them.

PB

I have also done this several times (in the manual scoresheet sense, not the filming sense). I recall one game I was observing where my player thought he had made the time control, and I had to stand there helplessly watching his flag fall when my notes showed he was one move short.
http://www.horshamchessclub.org.uk - ECF Club of the Year 2010

Andy Stoker
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Re: Dealing with a crisis as a captain

Post by Andy Stoker » Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:17 pm

Paul Buswell wrote: "I do this partly in case of a dispute later, partly so my player has the moves if they want them." (emphasis added by me)

... and in the spirit of things ... or his opponent. presumably

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