We're goin' to Vegas!!!

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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: We're goin' to Vegas!!!

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:58 am

Players can keep their grades low enough, by just withdrawing from tournaments as soon as they're out of contention for prizes. If you're one of the top seeds in the section, you will obviously be losing grading points by then. They might just withdraw as they're fed up with losing of course.

I suspect some players do throw games to keep their grades low. But I can't prove it. It would be crazy to name anyone. There have been libel cases where people have won, when someone has told the truth about them!

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: We're goin' to Vegas!!!

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:01 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:There have been libel cases where people have won, when someone has told the truth about them!
Are the details of those libel cases public or shall we keep those names secret also?

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: We're goin' to Vegas!!!

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:56 am

"Are the details of those libel cases public or shall we keep those names secret also?"

Carefully quoting a case where the person who sued is dead... (so they cannot sue again!) The American entertainer, Liberace, successfully sued an English newspaper for implying that he was homosexual. Randolph Churchill successfully sued Private Eye and then apparently said on his death bed, "Everything they said was true!"

Gordon Cadden
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Re: We're goin' to Vegas!!!

Post by Gordon Cadden » Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:04 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:"Are the details of those libel cases public or shall we keep those names secret also?"

Carefully quoting a case where the person who sued is dead... (so they cannot sue again!) The American entertainer, Liberace, successfully sued an English newspaper for implying that he was homosexual. Randolph Churchill successfully sued Private Eye and then apparently said on his death bed, "Everything they said was true!"
The newspaper was the Daily Mirror, and the writer was William Connor, using the pen name Cassandra. The trial went on for weeks, and cost the newspaper a small fortune. The expenses for Liberace would have been astronomical.

Colin Purdon
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Re: We're goin' to Vegas!!!

Post by Colin Purdon » Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:12 am

Gordon Cadden wrote: The newspaper was the Daily Mirror, and the writer was William Connor, using the pen name Cassandra.
No wonder he lost the case, using that name.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: We're goin' to Vegas!!!

Post by Michael Farthing » Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:14 am

Colin Purdon wrote:
Gordon Cadden wrote: The newspaper was the Daily Mirror, and the writer was William Connor, using the pen name Cassandra.
No wonder he lost the case, using that name.
But why bother sueing him? No one could possibly have believed anything he said!

Stewart Reuben
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Re: We're goin' to Vegas!!!

Post by Stewart Reuben » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:32 pm

Cassandra was a very influential columnist in his time. He damaged the reputation of P. G. Wodehouse considerably.

There many ways of cheating at chess. The main defence is probably that the amount of prize money available doesn't make it worthwhile. I am always amazed people cheat for so little return.

Earlier somebody disparaged the idea of going to Las Vegas. I haven't been since 2001, but I did spend about 15 months there - spread over nearly 40 years. I highly recommend it and, if you wish to, there are amazing places to go to not far from there.

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Jon Mahony
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Re: We're goin' to Vegas!!!

Post by Jon Mahony » Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:22 pm

In my first year of playing, I'm pretty sure I had a sandbagger throw a game to me in the last round of a congress, neither of us were on for any prize money. I had black and said player seemed to play very passively the whole game (and it would have had to be very passively, I was a 90 grade and didn't have a clue what I was doing!) at the end he left on this really daft smothered mate, I promptly did it with a big grin and patted myself on the back, but I always remember he didn't seem that shocked or bothered by it.

A year or two later we met in an early round and he proceeded destroy me with black

I'm afraid I'm in the not naming names group, as that could lead to all sorts of trouble, but he pops up every so often after a long hiatus and wins well paid minors. Id be very careful if he attempted to enter Leeds.

If I am right, I wonder what he'd have said under his breath if I'd missed the smothered mate :lol:
"When you see a good move, look for a better one!" - Lasker

Paul Douglass
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Re: We're goin' to Vegas!!!

Post by Paul Douglass » Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:33 pm

Jon Mahony wrote:In my first year of playing, I'm pretty sure I had a sandbagger throw a game to me in the last round of a congress, neither of us were on for any prize money. I had black and said player seemed to play very passively the whole game (and it would have had to be very passively, I was a 90 grade and didn't have a clue what I was doing!) at the end he left on this really daft smothered mate, I promptly did it with a big grin and patted myself on the back, but I always remember he didn't seem that shocked or bothered by it.

A year or two later we met in an early round and he proceeded destroy me with black

I'm afraid I'm in the not naming names group, as that could lead to all sorts of trouble, but he pops up every so often after a long hiatus and wins well paid minors. Id be very careful if he attempted to enter Leeds.

If I am right, I wonder what he'd have said under his breath if I'd missed the smothered mate :lol:
If it's the same player Jon, he regularly plays and sometimes organises events in the North-East. Apparently he can recite most of Alekhine's games!

NB - He drew against a 6 graded player in a tournament a few years ago. :evil:
Paul Douglass

"Every time I win a tournament I have to think that there is something wrong with modern chess." - Victor Korchnoi

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Jon Mahony
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Re: We're goin' to Vegas!!!

Post by Jon Mahony » Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:19 pm

Paul Douglass wrote:
Jon Mahony wrote:In my first year of playing, I'm pretty sure I had a sandbagger throw a game to me in the last round of a congress, neither of us were on for any prize money. I had black and said player seemed to play very passively the whole game (and it would have had to be very passively, I was a 90 grade and didn't have a clue what I was doing!) at the end he left on this really daft smothered mate, I promptly did it with a big grin and patted myself on the back, but I always remember he didn't seem that shocked or bothered by it.

A year or two later we met in an early round and he proceeded destroy me with black

I'm afraid I'm in the not naming names group, as that could lead to all sorts of trouble, but he pops up every so often after a long hiatus and wins well paid minors. Id be very careful if he attempted to enter Leeds.

If I am right, I wonder what he'd have said under his breath if I'd missed the smothered mate :lol:
If it's the same player Jon, he regularly plays and sometimes organises events in the North-East. Apparently he can recite most of Alekhine's games!

NB - He drew against a 6 graded player in a tournament a few years ago. :evil:
Sounds about right :wink:

Though he failed to deliver the goods at a certain big tournament last year, myself and about 10 other players were stood round his board in the last round, rubbing our hands together as pulled his hair out, attempting to find a way out of a forced mate :twisted:
"When you see a good move, look for a better one!" - Lasker

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Peter D Williams
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Re: We're goin' to Vegas!!!

Post by Peter D Williams » Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:28 pm

Afternoon all.

I thought i would got an invite to this event.

Well i must get back to watching RT news.
when you are successful many losers bark at you.

Stewart Reuben
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Re: We're goin' to Vegas!!!

Post by Stewart Reuben » Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:03 pm

Sandbagging can be diminished.
(a) Organisers should not have their rating bands all in the same place. Thus some U160, U165, U155, U150. That also has the advantage that more players have a chance. Also having grading improvement prizes as in most English international events means a weaker player has a better chance of getting such a prize. e.g. I am about 2240 US. The Rating prizes are for players U2400. I never stand a chance when it is decided purely on score.
(b) There could be a decision that, once a player has won a particular grading restricted tournament, he would be ineligible to play in such an event for one year. There could be variations, e.g, 3 such events or a longer period. It might say 'ineligible unless permitted by the Home Chess Director'. This would be throughout England and require organisers to cooperate.

When I was organising big events, very commonly somebody would come up saying, 'He must be sandbagging. He is graded 155 and yet scored 5.5/6 in an U160 tournament'. Professor Elo fell into that trap. Bill Goichberg scored 7/9 in his first FIDE-Rated round robin for a rating of 2535. Elo refuses to publish it, say, 'He must have cheated, it's 100/1 against him getting such a result'. Of course 100/1 results come up once in every 100. Olafsson, then FIDE President, instructed Elo to publish it.

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Jon Mahony
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Re: We're goin' to Vegas!!!

Post by Jon Mahony » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:59 am

I’ve always liked the idea of making any player who won a minor, play in the inters the next year and so on, it certainly would deter Sandbaggers.

However in practice, it would have its pit falls in terms of fairness - you could get someone who played well one weekend, won the tournament and for the rest of the season plays at his/her usual strength - I would certainly feel guilty about forcing a 100 grade (if I knew he genuinely is that strength) who won the Leeds U115 section, into the U135 to be taken apart, probably have a miserable weekend and never enter again.

I believe a good 50% of Chess players, have accepted they aren't going to improve much and just want to have fun playing at their own level, recoiling in horror at playing in an inter or major.

Certainly no other tournaments I've seen up north enforce that type of thing, indeed I've even seen the winner of an U135 section, playing in the U120's the following year. Heywood has a section where it is stated you can only enter, if you have never won a major prize in another tournament - the sharks just tend to be shorter at that one though :wink:
"When you see a good move, look for a better one!" - Lasker

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John Clarke
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Re: We're goin' to Vegas!!!

Post by John Clarke » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:48 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:Randolph Churchill successfully sued Private Eye and then apparently said on his death bed, "Everything they said was true!"
It was even odder than that, according to Nicholas Luard (the Eye's proprietor at the time). He and William Rushton, author/illustrator of the offending piece, visited Randolph Churchill to negotiate a settlement in the case. And RC, in the course of the discussions, exhibited many of the very behaviours that he claimed to have been libelled about! (See The Private Eye Story by Patrick Marnham, pp 59-61.)
"The chess-board is the world ..... the player on the other side is hidden from us ..... he never overlooks a mistake, or makes the smallest allowance for ignorance."
(He doesn't let you resign and start again, either.)

Sean Hewitt
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Re: We're goin' to Vegas!!!

Post by Sean Hewitt » Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:19 am

The most eratic player I know is this one

http://ratings.fide.com/id.phtml?event=405736

yet I doubt anyone would suggest that the variance in his performance is sandbagging or managed in any way. That said, I'm sure there are those out there that indulge. Thankfully though, I think they are few and far between.

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