Censorship on new English Chess Forum

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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Censorship on new English Chess Forum

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:19 am

Andrew Zigmond wrote:I hope you agree that it's preferable to a system where there was no mechanism for giving feedback on official announcements.
I see there's to be a discussion of a proposal to make county eligibility more restrictive. Should I go there and tell them that it's a stupid idea and that the Lancashire attitude that players are property who shouldn't be allowed to choose their own teams should be shot down.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Censorship on new English Chess Forum

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:43 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Andrew Zigmond wrote:I hope you agree that it's preferable to a system where there was no mechanism for giving feedback on official announcements.
I see there's to be a discussion of a proposal to make county eligibility more restrictive. Should I go there and tell them that it's a stupid idea and that the Lancashire attitude that players are property who shouldn't be allowed to choose their own teams should be shot down.
By all means. You're an ECF member, you are entitled to air your views and have them respected. I would say that you might achieve as much if not more but speaking to your Union representative and asking him to speak against the proposal.
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MartinCarpenter
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Re: Censorship on new English Chess Forum

Post by MartinCarpenter » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:02 pm

Actually even 'birth' is slightly debatable - do you mean hospital or where your parents were living? For a non trivial number of people those will be different....

I'd always more or less presumed that it was just based on registration for a club in the county. Residence I suppose makes sense for people who don't register with any club.

The rest I must admit to not being that sure about - if you do have historical roots for a county then its hardly like its other than entirely trivial to register for a club in it.

Krishna Shiatis
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Re: Censorship on new English Chess Forum

Post by Krishna Shiatis » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:30 pm

This is probably explained somewhere already, but why is there a new forum (with almost the exact same name) when one already exists?

Are the ECF using volunteers or paying people to run it? If they are paying, could they not use the funds more wisely elsewhere and if they are volunteers, could they not spend their time (helping English chess) better elsewhere?

If it is a matter of restricting debate, then that defeats the purpose of having a forum, surely?

Perhaps there is a logical reason for producing something exactly the same elsewhere, but it does seem superfluous.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Censorship on new English Chess Forum

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:33 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:I'd always more or less presumed that it was just based on registration for a club in the county. Residence I suppose makes sense for people who don't register with any club.
In some parts of the country, there are long established league arrangements where a club plays in the league of the neighbouring county. If players don't live in the neighbouring county, the ECF has a proposal for discussion that would bar them from representing that county. One example is Milton Keynes. This is part of Buckinghamshire as a traditional county, but is Bedfordshire in practice for chess purposes.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Censorship on new English Chess Forum

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:41 pm

Krishna Shiatis wrote:This is probably explained somewhere already, but why is there a new forum (with almost the exact same name) when one already exists?

Are the ECF using volunteers or paying people to run it? If they are paying, could they not use the funds more wisely elsewhere and if they are volunteers, could they not spend their time (helping English chess) better elsewhere?

If it is a matter of restricting debate, then that defeats the purpose of having a forum, surely?

Perhaps there is a logical reason for producing something exactly the same elsewhere, but it does seem superfluous.
This forum the EC Forum, is an unofficial forum. In real terms it's Carl Hibbard's personal forum and its his privilege to allow or curtail debate as he sees fit - he is not accountable to the ECF and the ECF cannot dictate any agenda to him.

With volunteers you do sometimes get what you pay for. Carl has been subjected to personal and private abuse here and elsewhere. I don't feel a small financial reward is unreasonable.
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Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Censorship on new English Chess Forum

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:43 pm

Krishna Shiatis wrote:This is probably explained somewhere already, but why is there a new forum (with almost the exact same name) when one already exists?
The message that is being put on on the other forum is that it will be "welcoming" and "co-operative" and not "confrontational'. Implicitly, therefore, the feeling must be that this forum is neither of the first two but is the third.

Krishna Shiatis wrote:Are the ECF using volunteers or paying people to run it?
Paying, but I suspect not much. I believe the phrase used was 'a small honorarium'.

Krishna Shiatis wrote: If they are paying, could they not use the funds more wisely elsewhere ....
That’s in the eye of the beholder I suppose, but I doubt the sums involved are that significant. Like Andrew, I think a small payment is entirely reasonable. Modding comments on the S&B blog is a major drag and it would take quite a bit more than all the tea in china to encourage me to do it elsewhere.


Krishna Shiatis wrote: If it is a matter of restricting debate, then that defeats the purpose of having a forum, surely?
Not if your purpose is to limit debate to a certain agenda. Anyhoo, the ECF Forum people don’t accept that debate will be restricted.


Krishna Shiatis wrote: Perhaps there is a logical reason for producing something exactly the same elsewhere, but it does seem superfluous.
See above.


For my part I see it as a question of demand. If it’s really true that there are many people who would post here but are put off because of the 'atmosphere' or 'tone' or whatever then the ECF Forum will flourish with many new members. If not then it won’t (although it may flourish with many members posting here and there).

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Censorship on new English Chess Forum

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:49 pm

Krishna Shiatis wrote: Perhaps there is a logical reason for producing something exactly the same elsewhere, but it does seem superfluous.
The idea is to make the ecforum redundant, it being blamed for the short comings of the ECF and thus hated by at least some ECF insiders or would-be insiders. Ideally they would like to abolish forums on chess altogether, but it's clear enough that ECF Directors and managers need somewhere to make announcements and occasionally request feedback. The irony is that in its initial form, the forum was at least co-owned by the ECF, who proceeded to disown it.

This was how the SCCU bulletin reported it, back in 2008
(3) English Chess Forum. This is the "outrageous" item. It was not actually on the printed agenda; it came up under President's Report. It was reported that Holloid had been less than amused by certain postings on the Forum. Also (and it's a thing you can never seek evidence for) that the Forum had cost us potential sponsors. It was said, moreover, that defamation could be an issue. We know now, but did not then, that the Board at its morning meeting had considered severing all connections with the Forum there and then; but had decided, since Council was expected along any time, to put it to Council instead. It was proposed that the Forum link on the ECF (no, Federation) front page be removed, and the Forum be asked to stop using the bcfservices domain name. This proposal was carried by a large majority. (Only two voted against, and if you've been to the Forum any time in the last three days you will know who they were.)

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Censorship on new English Chess Forum

Post by MartinCarpenter » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:56 pm

I'd seen the discussion thing about county eligibility, but missed that implication.

Not a good idea I'd think. Club grading lists are how captains are going to put grading band based teams together and you really shouldn't make that harder to do :) Also how people naturally group together anyway.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Censorship on new English Chess Forum

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:02 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote: The idea is to make the ecforum redundant ....
I’m not sure if this is true. Maybe. Certainly I’ve also heard - this is common knowledge isn’t it - that there’s a feeling that sponsors (potential or otherwise) will be/are put off by this forum.

I’m not sure if I believe this. I find it hard to believe that this forum is worse than any on some other subject somewhere else on the internet, for example, but it might be true.

I’m also not sure if the real problem is people discussing 'x' rather than 'x' happening in the first place, but it’s certainly true that (some) (sensible) people believe this forum is problematic. Maybe that’s true.


Where I do think there’s an issue is the idea being put forward - or perhaps implied - that the questioning and/or criticism of the ECF, here and elsewhere, has been entirely abusive hitherto. That is definitely untrue. I’m sure we can all remember times in the past, distant and more recent, that the ECF has simply ignored or brushed aside quite reasonable questions about what has been going on.

There’s also the point that one of the fellows with a notable track record of robust language - again, here and elsewhere - is from within the ECF.


Ultimately, though, I don’t see a problem with the ECF having a discussion board. Let’s see if proves popular. Even if it does - perhaps especially, then - there’ll still be a place for an independent forum.

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: Censorship on new English Chess Forum

Post by Carl Hibbard » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:14 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:He is not accountable to the ECF and the ECF cannot dictate any.
This is the key point!
Cheers
Carl Hibbard

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Censorship on new English Chess Forum

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:25 pm

Carl Hibbard wrote: This is the key point!
If there's a contested ECF election, it could become a point as to whom the moderators report and how independent they are. There was much criticism of Gerry Walsh as President and FIDE Delegate before he finally stood down from one post and was defeated in the other. That was in the days when the forum was still nominally part of the ECF. But then there was also an active atticus forum back in 2008 which would have been quick to shout censorship had ECF Officials made attempts to remove the critical material from this forum.

Simon Brown
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Re: Censorship on new English Chess Forum

Post by Simon Brown » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:34 pm

Looks like they need Carl's help already.. edit - now appears to be fixed

http://www.englishchess.org.uk/Forum/vi ... p?f=7&t=13
Last edited by Simon Brown on Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Graham Borrowdale

Re: Censorship on new English Chess Forum

Post by Graham Borrowdale » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:40 pm

Carl Hibbard wrote:
Andrew Zigmond wrote:He is not accountable to the ECF and the ECF cannot dictate any.
This is the key point!
There is also the point that Carl could choose at any moment to take his ball away. Not suggesting for a moment that he would, but at least an established 'official' ECF forum would take away that possibility.

Roger de Coverly wrote: In some parts of the country, there are long established league arrangements where a club plays in the league of the neighbouring county. If players don't live in the neighbouring county, the ECF has a proposal for discussion that would bar them from representing that county. One example is Milton Keynes. This is part of Buckinghamshire as a traditional county, but is Bedfordshire in practice for chess purposes.
Heaven forbid that I should be forced to play for Buckinghamshire!

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: Censorship on new English Chess Forum

Post by Carl Hibbard » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:04 pm

I expect moderation their to be "light" but the clear intention seems to be kill us off.

Then you have had it!

It needs something controversial to make clear the policy.
Cheers
Carl Hibbard

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