English Chess Forum

Walsall Kipping B 4-1 Mercia B played on Thursday 25th September in the Wolverhampton Chess League Division 3.

Mercia have raised an objection to the use of Digital clocks.

All that I have stated is public knowledge so far.

I do not exactly know what the nature of the objection is, and nor am I on the league committee. I am just a player for a competing club in the league. Nevertheless it will be interesting to see what the exact nature of the objection is, and what the end decision is.

Could you find out what the objection is so that we on the forum can discuss it?

They had no batteries in.

David Blower wrote:Mercia have raised an objection to the use of Digital clocks.

Maybe they were incorrectly set. I once gave players 5 hours each for a blitz game.

MSoszynski wrote: Maybe they were incorrectly set.

If League rules explicitly state that an extra x minutes is added after y moves, then digital clocks are usually non-compliant.

League rules are 30 moves in 65 minutes, with 15 minutes added on.

Roger de Coverly wrote:

MSoszynski wrote: Maybe they were incorrectly set.

If League rules explicitly state that an extra x minutes is added after y moves, then digital clocks are usually non-compliant.

If you mean non-compliant in the sense that they can't be programmed to do it automatically and need a manual adjustment at the time control, then yes. That's no worse than a clockwork clock.

Ian Thompson wrote:

Roger de Coverly wrote:

MSoszynski wrote: Maybe they were incorrectly set.

If League rules explicitly state that an extra x minutes is added after y moves, then digital clocks are usually non-compliant.

If you mean non-compliant in the sense that they can't be programmed to do it automatically and need a manual adjustment at the time control, then yes. That's no worse than a clockwork clock.

At least digital clocks don't go backwards.

I don't know what the dispute is actually about, but the idea that league rules may prevent the normal (FIDE-compliant) programming of clocks is quite plausible. Here is the relevant rule from the Wolverhampton League (http://www.wdclchess.org.uk/wiki/index. ... _OF_CLOCKS):

13 USE OF CLOCKS

1. The use of clocks shall be compulsory, and the time limits shall be one of the following options:-
(1) 30 moves in the first 65 mins, after Black's 30th move both clocks are to be wound back 15 mins and the game is to be finished in the time remaining.
OR
(2) if both teams agree before the start of the match, 36 moves in 75 minutes, followed by 28 moves in the next 60 minutes, followed by a 15-minute quickplay finish.
2. In matches played to the time limit in 13.1.(2), both captains may agree to change the first time period from 36 moves in 75 minutes to 42 moves in 90 minutes.

Options (1) and (2) are worded differently, and only (1) would appear to be a problem. In (2), there is no mention of winding the clock back at the time control. At the very least, that rule needs to be rewritten.

I have encountered the same problem in the Derby & District League, where their rules state (http://www.derbyshirechess.btck.co.uk/LeagueRules):

15. The rate of play for matches shall be 30 moves in 75 minutes after completion of Black’s 30th move; the clocks shall be set back by 15 minutes and then the players shall complete the game before the flag falls. This applies to all main League games. For the Team Knockout see separate rules.

One club in that league objects to the use of digital clocks on that basis. At West Nottingham (when I was a member there) we just used our analogue clocks instead when playing against that club. I was once gifted a half-point by one of the objecting players when he lost on time precisely because he misread how much time was left on an analogue clock.

The Nottinghamshire League makes special provision for digital clocks (http://www.nottschess.org/info.html#rules):

9. All games must be played with chess clocks
a. The time limit shall be 30 moves in 60 minutes in the bottom division, or 35 moves in 75 minutes in all other divisions, after which the clocks will be set back 15 minutes and the game played to a finish
b. Where electronic clocks are used, the required time periods must be set at the beginning of the match, so that no further adjustment of the clocks is required

That's possibly a little more than is strictly necessary, but it is at least completely clear that digital clocks can be used in the normal way.

Ian Kingston wrote: b. Where electronic clocks are used, the required time periods must be set at the beginning of the match, so that no further adjustment of the clocks is required
That's possibly a little more than is strictly necessary, but it is at least completely clear that digital clocks can be used in the normal way.

Berkshire rules

The default time rate for divisions 1 and 2 shall be 30 moves within 75 minutes followed by a wind-back of 15 minutes during which all remaining moves shall be made. (Digital clocks may be set to 75mins plus 15 mins without counting the moves.)

The intent of the words in brackets was to avoid disputes. I believe that if you set a clock to use Fischer timings with a zero second increment and the counter "on", then you can add time when the counter reaches the designated value. The problem is that you cannot readily tell whether the counter is correct and that when not using increments, the players may not know the move count either.

We had a discussion this year about whether to incorporate the new option to substitute a digital clock with an increment or delay in the event of an "unable to win" claim. The consensus was against as you cannot have an "arbiter decides" rule when there isn't one deemed present and if digital clocks were available, there's already an option to play the whole game under increment.

In the Birmingham League, Competition Rule 12 e), which covers resumptions after adjournments, states:
On the other hand, 12 b) states:
A.5 (if you can find it among different versions of the Laws) references A.4, which governs Rapidplay in the absence of arbiters, which among other things states:
Note that as the players will of course be resuming before the Rapidplay finish, the initial position will not be the adjourned position, so A.5 isn't strictly relevant to how the clocks shall be adjusted at the resumption.

MSoszynski wrote: Note that as the players will of course be resuming before the Rapidplay finish,

Quickplay finishes to standard play games and rapidplay are not quite the same thing with differences of detail here and there.

Unless intermediate time controls are abolished, I believe arbiter intransigence and digital clock design choices of twenty years ago will leave us stuck with a phase in every game where the clock doesn't correctly indicate the time remaining for the next move or the rest of the game.

Ian Kingston wrote:I have encountered the same problem in the Derby & District League, where their rules state (http://www.derbyshirechess.btck.co.uk/LeagueRules):

15. The rate of play for matches shall be 30 moves in 75 minutes after completion of Black’s 30th move; the clocks shall be set back by 15 minutes and then the players shall complete the game before the flag falls. This applies to all main League games. For the Team Knockout see separate rules.

One club in that league objects to the use of digital clocks on that basis.

A baseless complaint in my view. You set the digital clock to all moves in 75 minutes, and then, when 30 moves have been played, stop it and add 15 minutes onto the remaining time - a remarkably similar procedure to what you'd do with a clockwork clock.

The result stands. Although no statement on the Wolverhampton Chess League website about anything, just simply that the result has being included in the league tables, with the fixture list no longer stating the word objection next to it.

I am trying to find out the exact nature of the complaint.

Ian Kingston wrote:I don't know what the dispute is actually about, but the idea that league rules may prevent the normal (FIDE-compliant) programming of clocks is quite plausible. Here is the relevant rule from the Wolverhampton League (http://www.wdclchess.org.uk/wiki/index. ... _OF_CLOCKS):

13 USE OF CLOCKS

1. The use of clocks shall be compulsory, and the time limits shall be one of the following options:-
(1) 30 moves in the first 65 mins, after Black's 30th move both clocks are to be wound back 15 mins and the game is to be finished in the time remaining.
OR
(2) if both teams agree before the start of the match, 36 moves in 75 minutes, followed by 28 moves in the next 60 minutes, followed by a 15-minute quickplay finish.
2. In matches played to the time limit in 13.1.(2), both captains may agree to change the first time period from 36 moves in 75 minutes to 42 moves in 90 minutes.

Options (1) and (2) are worded differently, and only (1) would appear to be a problem. In (2), there is no mention of winding the clock back at the time control. At the very least, that rule needs to be rewritten.

I drafted the proposal, on behalf of the League President, to bring in this rule at the most recent AGM. Here's how I drafted it. This is what was put to the meeting.

1. The use of clocks shall be compulsory, and the time limits shall be one of the following options:-
(1) 30 moves in 65 minutes, followed by a 15-minute quickplay finish.
OR
(2) if both captains agree, before the start of the match, 36 moves in 75 minutes, followed by 28 moves in the next 60 minutes, followed by a 15-minute quickplay finish.

2. In matches played to the time limit in 13.1.(2), may both captains agree to change the first time period from 36 moves in 75 minutes to 42 moves in 90 minutes.

I think this addresses Ian's point. There's only so much I can do...