Default Times

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Mike Truran
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Re: Default Times

Post by Mike Truran » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:44 am

Stewart

Not sure I understand your point about zero tolerance + organiser latitude potentially resulting in 5% (or whatever the number might be) loss of FIDE rated activity through confusion. Perhaps you could amplify?

Mike

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Default Times

Post by Stewart Reuben » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:15 am

Let us imagine a tournament run by and played in by normal, fallible people.
The organiser has overlooked making any comment in his pre-event publicity about the default time.
The arbiter 'knows' it to be 30 minutes because he knows the CAA recommendation.
One player knows it to be zero time because he has read up on the Laws.
The other player is unaware that any change at all has been made. He believes it to be one hour.
Result confusion and bad feeling.
This is in England where the Laws should be better distributed. After all, they are written in English English as opposed to American English. What about in France where they have been waiting patiently to complete their translation of the Laws? What about other less-organised federations?

Thus a loss in FIDE Rated activity because people will be somewhat less than gruntled. I doubt there will be a problem for the 4NCL as the captains will ensure the players are informed of the likely change to 30 minutes. Not that everybody will get, or remember, the message.

Stewart

Richard Bates
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Re: Default Times

Post by Richard Bates » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:33 am

Stewart Reuben wrote:
I guess Manuel Weeks will choose 30 minutes for Torquay. That is what is favoured by the CAA I understand.
Thus a loss in FIDE Rated activity because people will be somewhat less than gruntled. I doubt there will be a problem for the 4NCL as the captains will ensure the players are informed of the likely change to 30 minutes. Not that everybody will get, or remember, the message.

Stewart
What is the CAA (the Chess Arbiters' Association?) and why do you expect the 4NCL to make any unnecessary and detrimental changes on account of their opinions? I would expect the 4NCL board to consult the captains and players, and no changes will be made.

Since FIDE still allows 1hr defaults (am i wrong in this?), I am yet to hear a sensible explanation for reducing default times to 30min (except for repairing purposes). Nobody gains justifiably and people will lose out from lost opportunities for norms.

Mike Truran
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Re: Default Times

Post by Mike Truran » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:44 am

Richard

Claire and I had already added this to the draft agenda for the forthcoming captains' meeting at Hinckley Island in order to canvas captains' opinions on your point.

Mike

Simon Spivack
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Re: Default Times

Post by Simon Spivack » Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:13 pm

Richard Bates wrote: What is the CAA (the Chess Arbiters' Association?)
http://chessarbiters.co.uk/default.aspx

Sean Hewitt

Re: Default Times

Post by Sean Hewitt » Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:34 pm

I would have thought that the question of what the default time should be is nothing to do with the arbiter. It's a matter for the organiser to decide in whatever manner he deems fit, and for the arbiter to implement that decision.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Default Times

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:21 pm

I would have thought most evening leagues will stick with whatever they previously used, usually 30 minutes(?)
And most tournament entry forms make comments about default times varying from FIDE Laws (although they usually say Rules...), so you don't even have to change entry forms.

For small tournaments, I quite agree you can set your own rules. If the sponsor is going to be standing there at start time, ready to be photographed with the players, obviously you need them there. What you do not need is idiotic decisions like defaulting someone who was there early, then stood up just before the gong for the start of the round!
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John Saunders
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Re: Default Times

Post by John Saunders » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:46 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:I don't see how there can be arbiter's discretion for zero default time. A player knows he has won. Now the arbiter says, 'Oh, no. Your opponent had a good reason. He has just saved the life of the FIDE President and is now one minute late.'
Surely, Stewart, you could have come up with a more worthy reason for a player to be late than this?
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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Default Times

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:21 pm

"Stewart Reuben wrote:
I don't see how there can be arbiter's discretion for zero default time. A player knows he has won. Now the arbiter says, 'Oh, no. Your opponent had a good reason. He has just saved the life of the FIDE President and is now one minute late.'


Surely, Stewart, you could have come up with a more worthy reason for a player to be late than this?"
-----
Er, saved the life of the ECF president?
"Kevin was the arbiter and was very patient. " Nick Grey

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Default Times

Post by Stewart Reuben » Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:27 pm

I would have thought that the question of what the default time should be is nothing to do with the arbiter. It's a matter for the organiser to decide in whatever manner he deems fit, and for the arbiter to implement that decision. Sean Hewitt
I think the best organisers work together with their arbiters on these and many other matters. Take, for example, the prize money structure. The amount and the entry fee is not the concern of the arbiter, but a dreadful mess can be, and often is, created by a poor structure. It is up to the organizer to find the money for the clocks. He would be stupid not to consult the arbiters on which they thought most suitable.

Similarly both groups consult the players. That is why the best chess administrators have experience in all three fields.

I hope the new FIDE Laws of Chess will be on the ECF website on Thursday, probably together with the new Title and Ratings Regulations.
Stewart Reuben

Phil Neatherway
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Re: Default Times

Post by Phil Neatherway » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:01 am

After playing in the 4NCL last Sunday, I see where FIDE are coming from. At the appointed time, none of the opposing team were present. Neither were 3 of my own team. This was by no means the only match affected by later arrivals. Apart from the gross discourtesy, this meant a continual hubbub of noise for a good 20 minutes after the start of play.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Default Times

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:26 am

After playing in the 4NCL last Sunday, I see where FIDE are coming from. At the appointed time, none of the opposing team were present. Neither were 3 of my own team.
Would you really want Oxford 3 to have won 3-0 without any games being played?

The 4NCL are now at liberty to introduce such a rule and potential outcome. I believe they appreciate that hardly any players would participate under these conditions.

The Sunday morning round is bound to suffer from players being delayed checking out of their hotels. Latecomers are penalised by loss of time on their clocks. You could argue for a higher penalty but loss of game is too extreme.

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Re: Default Times

Post by Ian Kingston » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:10 am

Neither round of the 4NCL started at the appointed time last weekend (at least not in the room that I played in). The instruction to start White's clock came about five minutes late. If anyone is crazy enough to implement the zero minute default rule, they'll have to start at the advertised time, be very clear about which clock they are going by (the clock on the wall, even if it's fast or slow? The arbiter's watch?), and have enough arbiters to determine who is to be defaulted. Doesn't seem feasible to me.

Phil Neatherway
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Re: Default Times

Post by Phil Neatherway » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:08 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:[
Would you really want Oxford 3 to have won 3-0 without any games being played?

The 4NCL are now at liberty to introduce such a rule and potential outcome. I believe they appreciate that hardly any players would participate under these conditions.

The Sunday morning round is bound to suffer from players being delayed checking out of their hotels. Latecomers are penalised by loss of time on their clocks. You could argue for a higher penalty but loss of game is too extreme.
Of course I wouldn't want that. However I think if I can make the effort to be there on time, so can others. I don't agree about checking out, it was no problem. Essentially, I think the issue of lateness is one of good manners.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Default Times

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:31 am

Would you really want Oxford 3 to have won 3-0 without any games being played?
Of course I wouldn't want that.
If you don't want it, do not lend any support to zero default times.
I don't agree about checking out, it was no problem
The quick check out at Hinckley was very effective. But not everyone was staying at the playing venue and not every NCL venue is as efficient.
However I think if I can make the effort to be there on time, so can others. Essentially, I think the issue of lateness is one of good manners.
Well that's a reasonable statement of a problem. Some in FIDE seem to think that the solution is to increase the existing penalty from loss of time to loss of game. Those of us that hope to play chess rather than musical chairs disagree.
If anyone is crazy enough to implement the zero minute default rule, they'll have to start at the advertised time, be very clear about which clock they are going by (the clock on the wall, even if it's fast or slow? The arbiter's watch?), and have enough arbiters to determine who is to be defaulted. Doesn't seem feasible to me.
I suspect that what may happen ( not in this country but where they have no tradition of starting on time) is that there will be an announcement that the round is shortly to start but no clocks will actually be started until everyone is present and seated. Ironically this removes the existing time penalty for late arrival at the board.

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