at the mercy of the arbiter

[Nigel_Davies]

Actually, thinking about this "insulted and abused by people they've never met" - this is not good, but it happens in a lot of jobs, doesn't it? Including a fair few I've done myself. Even when I was working as a librarian.

Well you could well be right about that! Yesterday I saw a sign in a shop stating that abuse of the staff would not be tolerated.

Perhaps what's so distressing about the abuse of titled chess players (besides being one of them) is that it needs a high level of skill and dedication to get there after which the rewards are so miserable.

My own observation, based admittedly on a sample of one, is that chess Grandmasters tend to receive much more respect outside chess. Little wonder that so many of them quit.

PS (as edit): They also tend to get more respect outside the UK. It used to be great going to Russia, even as an IM.

[Jonathan Bryant]

It used to be great going to Russia, even as an IM.

A lament for the end of communism?

[Nigel_Davies]

A lament for the end of communism?

The Russians assured me that I was better off just visiting. But there were certainly compensations for being a chess player in Eastern Europe.

There are other countries too where strong chess players are held in high esteem, for example India. Most of Europe may be better for this than the UK, and once again this is a factor in many relocations, and occasional a switch of allegiance.

[JustinHorton]

Well, there's something to be said for the idea that Anglo-American culture (which is to paint in very broad strokes indeed) places a lower value on intellectual accomplishment than others do. But I suspect other reasons are more prominent when people move, notably that the weather's better and the major European leagues and tournaments are closer to hand.

[Nigel_Davies]

Well, there's something to be said for the idea that Anglo-American culture (which is to paint in very broad strokes indeed) places a lower value on intellectual accomplishment than others do. But I suspect other reasons are more prominent when people move, notably that the weather's better and the major European leagues and tournaments are closer to hand.

You may be right about the lower value placed on intellectual accomplishment, but at least with the US then accomplishment of some kind is value. I think there's a lot of envy in the UK.

Tony Kosten has written about his reasons for living in France and I believe he mentioned factors such as more tournaments and greater respect. Of course the two may well go hand in hand.

[JustinHorton]

I think it's hard to argue that people are envious of an accomplishment that they don't actually consider important. People in the UK just don't, on the whole, think that being good at chess counts for very much. In a way I think they're right though my reasons for thinking so might well be substantially different.

As far as accomplishment in general is concerned - I think it's quite possible (and indeed quite common) to respect an accomplishment and yet not the person who achieves it. This tends to occur when said individual uses that accomplishment to behave badly in one way or another: and especially if they're in your face about it.

My view is that if people want to be judged on their achievements then they should talk to their trophies about it. But if they want to be judged by people, then they are liable to find that people employ human criteria.

[Tim Spanton]

Actually, thinking about this "insulted and abused by people they've never met" - this is not good, but it happens in a lot of jobs, doesn't it? Including a fair few I've done myself. Even when I was working as a librarian.

Believe it or not, it sometimes even happens to Sun journos

[Sean Hewitt]

There are some who simply don't like professionals,and think we should go get a ''proper'' job.

That's true. A comment was made to me at one of my events by a player that he objected to "subsidising GMs" as he put it.

[Jonathan Rogers]

I think that it is possible, as Keith says, that GMs who turn professional instead of getting a "proper job", do come in for a certain amount of antipathy, and there may be an element of envy about it - because a lot of people hate their work and do not like to see others doing what they seem to enjoy as a living. I expect that amateur GMs do have an easier time of it. All that said, it still seems to me that any GM commands a certain amount of respect, and that those who dwell on their negative experiences are not balancing them against the many more positive reactions from ordinary chess players, some of which (I suspect) they do not even notice but tend to take for granted.

Speaking as some one who is not very close to GM level, but still strong by most standards, I would say that I encountered the most hostility as an up and coming junior player. People (well, I mean some adults below 170) loved to beat me, even when I was behaving well... is that a widely shared experience? I was vividly reminded of this when I saw the post yesterday about an elderly man who clenched his fist in delight when his ten year old opponent's phone rang.

[Nigel_Davies]

an elderly man who clenched his fist in delight when his ten year old opponent's phone rang.

Beautiful! N

[JustinHorton]

That's true. A comment was made to me at one of my events by a player that he objected to "subsidising GMs" as he put it.

Isn't that possibly somebody objecting to "conditions", as opposed to chess professionals as such?

[Nigel_Davies]

said individual uses that accomplishment to behave badly in one way or another: and especially if they're in your face about it.

Do you see Grandmasterly pride as being hugely more odious than showing off one's dosh via personalised number plates? A lot of people seem to be affected by all such things, perhaps feeling that their noses are being rubbed into their own disappointments.

[Sean Hewitt]

That's true. A comment was made to me at one of my events by a player that he objected to "subsidising GMs" as he put it.

Isn't that possibly somebody objecting to "conditions", as opposed to chess professionals as such?

Not in this event - it was a weekend swiss. His point was that, with 3 GMs playing in it and prize money for 1st, 2nd and 3rd no "ordinary" player would win anything, and so in effect the entry fees were just going to go to the GMs in prize money.

As it was, the GMs didnt finish 1, 2, 3. More importantly though, the feedback from most players in the event was that they enjoyed having the 3 GMs play in the tournament. Firstly, because they were playing in the same event as 3 GMs and secondly, because 9 of the ordinary players got to play a GM that weekend - not something that happens to most players on the weekend congress circuit.

[JustinHorton]

Do you see Grandmasterly pride as being hugely more odious than showing off one's dosh via personalised number plates? A lot of people seem to be affected by all such things, perhaps feeling that their noses are being rubbed into their own disappointments.

I think it largely depends on how it manifests itself.

[Matthew Turner]

In my experience, most people like to see good players at events. In general, tournaments with Opens seem to be better attended than those which are grading limitted. Having said that I think some GMs (no-one who has contributed to this thread) don't help themselves. Earlier someone commented about how respected Mickey Adams was - is this really true? England having secured a new sponsor (LV) were in contention for a medal at the Olympiad, but Mickey needed a second rest day in a row (against Russia). Is this professional, or worthy of respect - well, not in my opinion.