Cheating in chess

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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:51 am

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:28 am
It would be banded in category C, the least serious I would think, but would still meet the definition of the offence.
On the other hand, newspapers didn't have any difficulties publishing the Rausis photgraph.

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:27 am

It’s certainly an odd decision when you think about it. Perhaps because it didn’t occur in the UK, neither parties lived in the UK and it had already been widely reported, their legal departments were more confident there would be no repercussions.

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:52 am

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:29 pm
I was more putting myself in their shoes and imagining someone falsely suspected and being snapped sat on the loo. In the current climate it seems only a matter of time before someone is in England.
That is the point. Only when a cheater has been caught the "toilet photographer" boasts publicly about their achievement. You have to wonder how many people suspected cheating, followed players in the toilet and took similar pictures pictures without ultimately being able to prove their case. You won't read from them in their blogs about those failed attempts.
Reactions and enthusiastic comments such as from Yuri Garret from the FIDE anti-cheating commission might give players and organizers the unhelpful impression they actually encourage "toilet photography".

Chris Rice
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Chris Rice » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:02 am

Gaioz Nigalidze, who was the reason this thread was started and who subsequently was stripped of his GM title and received a three year ban is back. He played the Badalona tournament, carrying an IM title and an Elo of 2534 and achieved a performance rating of 2139. Full results here.
There is a procedural question here. If he wants to get his GM title back presumably he'll have to get the norms again but is it right that he can use his previous rating of 2500+ which was gained at least partially through cheating to do it? Considering FIDE let him keep his IM title perhaps they should have reset his Elo to say 2400 before they let him play again?

Angus French
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Angus French » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:00 am

Chris Rice wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:02 am
There is a procedural question here. If he wants to get his GM title back presumably he'll have to get the norms again but is it right that he can use his previous rating of 2500+ which was gained at least partially through cheating to do it?
Given that his current rating is 2500+ isn't the question moot? Also, was it determined that his previous rating of 2500+ was gained at least partially through cheating?

Chris Rice
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Chris Rice » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:09 am

Angus French wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:00 am
Given that his current rating is 2500+ isn't the question moot?
That's the point I was trying to make. They haven't changed it so presumably if he makes the norms they will use it and I'm asking whether that's justified.
Angus French wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:00 am
Also, was it determined that his previous rating of 2500+ was gained at least partially through cheating?

They stripped him of the GM title so is the implication that not only did he cheat but he is not a worthy 2500+ player who has made the required number of norms? If they've stripped him of the GM title they should have stripped the rating as well.

NickFaulks
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:17 am

Chris Rice wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:09 am
I don't see why it should be so easy for him just to walk back in as if nothing had happened. If they've stripped him of the GM title they could have stripped the rating as well.
It is blindingly obvious to me that he should have been stripped of all titles and ratings, and started again as a new player. This idea was rejected by ACC on the astonishing ground that it might somehow benefit the player!

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger Lancaster » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:40 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:17 am
It is blindingly obvious to me that he should have been stripped of all titles and ratings, and started again as a new player. This idea was rejected by ACC on the astonishing ground that it might somehow benefit the player!
Nick, any insight as to the manner in which the ACC felt it might benefit the player? I think you're suggesting it's far from obvious, which is also my conclusion.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Ian Thompson » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:30 am

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:40 am
NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:17 am
It is blindingly obvious to me that he should have been stripped of all titles and ratings, and started again as a new player. This idea was rejected by ACC on the astonishing ground that it might somehow benefit the player!
Nick, any insight as to the manner in which the ACC felt it might benefit the player? I think you're suggesting it's far from obvious, which is also my conclusion.
When someone's already been caught cheating it's probably not unreasonable to assume they might continue to so in the future, in a different way. Suppose his true strength is 2400 and he's unrated. He deliberately plays badly in his first tournament back and gets a low rating, e.g. 2100. He then starts playing properly. He performs at a level way above his published rating until he gets back to something close to 2400, picking up quite a few rating prizes along the way.

Chris Rice
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Chris Rice » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:54 am

It's worth reminding ourselves that Azmaiparashvili bent over backwards to plead for his fellow countryman on the grounds that he only cheated because he needed the money and a ban would make that problem worse.

The Ethics Commission ruling which I have attached here states at 5.3 "For the sake of clarity, the sanction does not seek to restrain Mr Nigalidze from earning income during the period of the ban as a chess trainer, teacher or coach." So they were clearly worried about his future income which is presumably why they went unnecessarily easy on him.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:11 am

There are other problems linked to stripping someone of a rating, mostly related to inflation and deflation in the rating system.

NickFaulks
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:14 am

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:40 am
Nick, any insight as to the manner in which the ACC felt it might benefit the player? I think you're suggesting it's far from obvious, which is also my conclusion.
I think it reflected a mistrust of the rating system, based on ignorance. Sometimes you realise that a discussion is simply not worth pursuing.

NickFaulks
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:15 am

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:11 am
There are other problems linked to stripping someone of a rating, mostly related to inflation and deflation in the rating system.
I don't understand. What precisely is your concern?

Chris Rice
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Chris Rice » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:17 am

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:11 am
There are other problems linked to stripping someone of a rating, mostly related to inflation and deflation in the rating system.
That may well be but perhaps those problems need to be sorted out rather than letting the cheater of the hook because of admin problems? Besides its pretty much a Black Swan event, at least at the moment, so would it greatly inconvenience the overall rating system?

NickFaulks
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:20 am

Ian Thompson wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:30 am
picking up quite a few rating prizes along the way.
That is a problem which tournament organisers should deal with, although they typically can't be bothered. I hope they would receive support from Fair Play Commission.

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