Cheating in chess

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Adam Raoof » Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:11 am

"But I was in the room with them all the time, and they only had access to one device! They couldn't have had assistance !"

The kids know way more about technology than we sometimes give them credit for and at a far younger age.
Adam Raoof IA, IO
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NickFaulks
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:28 am

Joseph Conlon wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:25 am
I don't think there's any good solution to this other than the return to OTB chess.
But is it already too late? If the cream of our young players were forming the view that competitive chess is just a nest of rattlesnakes and better avoided altogether, could you blame them?
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:32 am

Adam Raoof wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:30 am
Why did 4NCL make it harder to find players handles by removing them from the list? You can still find them by looking at the full player profile on Swiss Manager.
Presumably to make it more difficult to find out who had been banned. If there was a transparent process for issuing bans and an appeal process which people had confidence in, would it not be a deterrent that names were to be published? They might want to remove ratings as well, as that gives clues by virtue of out performance against long established rating levels.

Perhaps Adam is looking at something different behind the scenes using his access as a registered user for the pairing program, but the "club" field, which had been ingeniously used for the lichess handle appears to have disappeared completely for normal users.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Adam Raoof » Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:38 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:28 am
Joseph Conlon wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:25 am
I don't think there's any good solution to this other than the return to OTB chess.
But is it already too late? If the cream of our young players were forming the view that competitive chess is just a nest of rattlesnakes and better avoided altogether, could you blame them?
I know. It's quite a challenge, but as some have suggested maybe the future will be events where all players are encouraged to use engines. Maybe I will organise one!

I have watched two players, who are both using engines, battle it out several times. All results are possible. Ironically one complained that their opponent was using an engine.

PS you can still see the club field in the full player view.
Adam Raoof IA, IO
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:12 pm

Regarding the 4NCL Congress, another problem faced by the organisers is how to announce prize winners, since exclusions will point a finger at those excluded. The prizes are just trophies.

Mick Norris
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:32 pm

Any reason why fingers shouldn't be pointed?

I'm not sure we need more discussions where some people know who is being talked about, and the rest of us don't
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

John McKenna
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by John McKenna » Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:36 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:02 am
I played in round 1 on Friday evening. I recently had an operation and have been taking Codeine all week, which makes you somewhat drowsy... SNIP

I proceeded to reach a +5 position, but was struggling to calculate clearly and using too much time. At a certain point I was aware that he was making very good moves, he reversed his disadvantage and beat me.... SNIP

After reading Pete's post above, I decided to go back and analyse my game to check my opponents moves... SNIP

Hope you don't mind me editing your post a bit, for clarity in making mine, Nick.

A very strange game by Black - from where did he get 7... Qd5? (Obviously not an engine.)

Between there and your 21.Nf5? (Pf4 retains the advantage) Black was just about hanging on and it looked like he would soon lose. (Can you point to where you "reach a +5 position", please?)

After your 21st move your opponent did play much better than could be expected to bring off the win - given his grade/rating - rather than only getting a draw, or even going wrong and losing.

If the Open section had been closed to players under 1800 it may have balanced the numbers (see note below) in the 3 sections better and avoided some players having an unfair "pop" at those at the top.

NB: The Open had about 60 players - around 20 of whom were under 1800. The Major had about 40 players with 13 over 1800. The Minor had about 70 players all under 1700 with only 5 unrated.

That entry numbers distribution made the event a fair bit more top-heavy than an OTB one and the Major got squeezed.
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:12 pm
Regarding the 4NCL Congress, another problem faced by the organisers is how to announce prize winners, since exclusions will point a finger at those excluded. The prizes are just trophies.
From the official website -
Trophies
1st place, 2nd place, 3rd place in each section.
Best performance trophy in each section.
 
No player may win more than one trophy. Ungraded or unrated players may not win a rating trophy.
 
Trophies may be changed subject to numbers of entries.
Mick Norris wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:32 pm
Any reason why fingers shouldn't be pointed?

I'm not sure we need more discussions where some people know who is being talked about, and the rest of us don't
No trophies for the best cheats - it might make a difference there were.
Last edited by John McKenna on Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:20 am, edited 3 times in total.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

Nick Burrows
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Nick Burrows » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:09 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:32 pm
Any reason why fingers shouldn't be pointed?
Agreed. It's bizarre to protect the identity of flagged users.

Nick Burrows
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Nick Burrows » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:18 pm

John McKenna wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:36 pm


A very strange game by Black - from where did he get 7... Qd5? (Obviously not an engine.)

Between there and your 21.Nf5? (Pf4 retains the advantage) Black was just about hanging on and it looked like he would soon lose. (Can you point to where you "reach a +5 position", please?)
Exactly at that point. 21.f4 is +4.6 according to Stockfish on Lichess. 21.Nf5? threw away the whole advantage. I assume he tried to win by normal means and then when it was going wrong turned on the engine and clearly left it on for the rest of the tournament. You would think at 76 years of age he would know better.

Robin Nandi
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Robin Nandi » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:22 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:12 pm
Regarding the 4NCL Congress, another problem faced by the organisers is how to announce prize winners, since exclusions will point a finger at those excluded. The prizes are just trophies.
It makes sense for the organisers to publish a list of users suspected of cheating (by their own checks or by Lichess). These could be split into those strongly suspected of cheating (to be disqualified) and those under suspicion of having cheated (to be flagged). This would help protect the integrity of the tournament and discourage people from cheating in future online tournaments.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Ian Thompson » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:25 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:32 pm
Any reason why fingers shouldn't be pointed?
Finger pointing needs care. I don't see any problem with stating verifiable facts and naming the player, e.g. the player:
  • played in rounds 1 -3
  • did not play in rounds 4 and 5
  • the lichess account used is now closed
If people make assumptions about why those things happened that's up to them.

The 4NCL could do innocent players a favour by noting in the results where missed rounds were at the behest of the player, so people don't jump to the wrong conclusions about them.

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Ihor Lewyk
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Ihor Lewyk » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:41 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:38 am

I know. It's quite a challenge, but as some have suggested maybe the future will be events where all players are encouraged to use engines. Maybe I will organise one!
I think these tournaments are already running. See ICCF

John McKenna
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by John McKenna » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:49 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:18 pm
John McKenna wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:36 pm


A very strange game by Black - from where did he get 7... Qd5? (Obviously not an engine.)

Between there and your 21.Nf5? (Pf4 retains the advantage) Black was just about hanging on and it looked like he would soon lose. (Can you point to where you "reach a +5 position", please?)
Exactly at that point. 21.f4 is +4.6 according to Stockfish on Lichess. 21.Nf5? threw away the whole advantage. I assume he tried to win by normal means and then when it was going wrong turned on the engine... SNIP

You would think at 76 years of age he would know better.
Thanks, Nick.

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Roger Lancaster
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger Lancaster » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:43 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:25 pm
Finger pointing needs care. I don't see any problem with stating verifiable facts and naming the player, e.g. the player:
Finger pointing does indeed require care. See FIDE Anti-Cheating Guideline 7

7 . How to deal with false accusations: - In case of a false accusation by a player, the Arbiter shall penalize him/her according to Article 12 .2 of the Laws of Chess . For further procedures, see Section 3, Part A .

If the player claims the accusation was false, and represents to FIDE accordingly, it seems possible that those making the accusation could - if they haven't exercised the necessary degree of care - find themselves in a situation they didn't expect to be in. Others may have greater insight and offer reassurance on this point?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:08 pm

John McKenna wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:36 pm

Between there and your 21.Nf5? (Pf4 retains the advantage) Black was just about hanging on and it looked like he would soon lose. (Can you point to where you "reach a +5 position", please?)
I think your suggestion of f4 may be it. There's threats of e5, f5 etc. with a general splat of the King in the centre. Leaving the Knight on d6 prevents the defence as seen in the game of trading the Rooks.

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