Cheating in chess

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Wadih Khoury
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Wadih Khoury » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:15 pm

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:01 pm
A least two from England, two from Wales (I think), multiple bans from the Netherlands, and one blatant case from Belgium I heard about. I’m not sure about Ireland. I think Scotland ran a pretty clean team. At a guess the England players might be facing a 5 event online ban, but I’m not sure if 4NCL Online rules were in effect. It was all bang out of order, and I’d hope the culprits don’t get to wear England vests for a couple of years in over the board chess.
Any official notification from the organisers? Or a forum where this is discussed in more details?
Any ECF comment on the England allegations?

Pete Heaven
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Pete Heaven » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:48 pm

Only one banned from each of England, Scotland, Wales and Belgium (from their play in the event) plus one further ban of a Dutch player for play prior to the Glorney. The first 4 mentioned were, by some margin, the worst offenders. From my reading of all 300 games, though still working my way through them, the cleanest team was Scotland, then Wales, then England. The other three teams appear to be some way worse. I could be wrong of course, not that I was wrong when I reported the banned English and Welsh players months before the Glorney. Some engine use isn't hard to spot, though apparently it is hard to act upon.

John Swain
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Location: Nottingham

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by John Swain » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:50 pm

Wadih Khoury wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:15 pm
Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:01 pm
A least two from England, two from Wales (I think), multiple bans from the Netherlands, and one blatant case from Belgium I heard about. I’m not sure about Ireland. I think Scotland ran a pretty clean team. At a guess the England players might be facing a 5 event online ban, but I’m not sure if 4NCL Online rules were in effect. It was all bang out of order, and I’d hope the culprits don’t get to wear England vests for a couple of years in over the board chess.
Any official notification from the organisers? Or a forum where this is discussed in more details?
Any ECF comment on the England allegations?
The Glorney-Gilbert event was due to be hosted by the French as an over-the-board competition but, due to coronavirus, the ECF offered to host it as an online event (and the French had a prior engagement on the dates chosen, so withdrew):
https://www.welshchessunion.uk/junior/g ... bert-2020/

I imagine that the conditions affecting the England players are covered by the ECF’s online Fair Play and Anti-Cheating regulations:
https://englishchessonline.org.uk/wp-co ... ACv2_1.pdf
The sanctions for juniors are clearly stated, but the outcome will be affected both by the ages of the players (under or over 16 being a key factor) and also whether the player(s) accept that they cheated, which can reduce a ban by a third.

It may well be that appeals are underway and it seems that this can be a drawn-out process. It may also depend on whether the application of Ken Regan’s software to the players' games supports the players and therefore an appeal, or the platform.

Confidentiality is a key aspect of the ECF’s policy, so I wouldn’t anticipate any warts-and-all disclosures or report:

“The Organiser will be asked to manage any changes to results etc in such a way as to avoid or minimise any publicity for the sanctioned player.”

We know that lichess can wrongly issue a ban, but, as in the recent case of Santiago Palomar, it can take a monumental effort to achieve justice. His cause was ably supported by an eminent I.M. coach, Javier Gil and the ban was eventually overturned. Few parents have such excellent support.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the second U.K. Chess Challenge Gigafinal and in the Terafinal, also being run on lichess. Players must know that if they cheat, they are likely to be caught, having seen it happen to several at the Megafinals and first Gigafinal stage. Whether any appeals thus far have been successful is unclear.

Andy Howie
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Andy Howie » Sat Aug 08, 2020 4:56 pm

Pete Heaven wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:48 pm
Only one banned from each of England, Scotland, Wales and Belgium (from their play in the event) plus one further ban of a Dutch player for play prior to the Glorney. The first 4 mentioned were, by some margin, the worst offenders. From my reading of all 300 games, though still working my way through them, the cleanest team was Scotland, then Wales, then England. The other three teams appear to be some way worse. I could be wrong of course, not that I was wrong when I reported the banned English and Welsh players months before the Glorney. Some engine use isn't hard to spot, though apparently it is hard to act upon.

i'm afraid you are quite wrong. No Scotland player was banned from the Glorney

Pete Heaven
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Pete Heaven » Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:03 pm

Apologies for the brain fade Andy; Netherlands not Scotland. Also, a second English player was suspended from the competition, though not banned from lichess.

Andy Howie
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Andy Howie » Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:11 pm

Thanks Peter,

I can't speak for other federations, but Scotland takes online cheating in organised tournaments and leagues very very seriously. Anyone caught and proven to be cheating faces up to a 5 year ban depending on age. The players up here all know me and know what I do so are motivated not to :D It is fair to say we read the riot act to our Glorney squads about what would happen if they disgraced our country in this manner. They took it to heart and despite not so good results, we had some amazing, fair, individual performances which is all I can ask of them

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:24 pm

"It is fair to say we read the riot act to our Glorney squads about what would happen if they disgraced our country in this manner."

You would hope everyone did that...

I recall on one of my earlier visits to Guernsey, that a Dutchman was infuriated that two of the BCF Junior Squad were discussing games whilst still playing them. He complained to the guy in charge of the juniors, who said, "That's nothing to do with me," and then ran away. The Dutchman got a more sympathetic response when speaking to me (although obviously it really wasn't my problem). Happily, a different person ran the juniors the next year and basically said what you did, pointing out that people won't think X or Y cheated, but a "BCF Junior" and how would they like it if they got the blame as someone else had cheated.

Pete Heaven
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Pete Heaven » Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:37 pm

I know that the Welsh Management also gave daily lectures on cheating but I have to say that Scotland are well ahead of us. It seems likely to me that the spectre of bans was a major contributory factor to them being clearly the cleanest team in the competition. It's not only a junior problem of course. However, I'm going to cut and paste Andy's last response as a starting point for getting a conversation about online and OTB bans considered down here in the valleys.

David Sedgwick
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Location: Croydon

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by David Sedgwick » Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:00 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:49 pm
I understand that at least one English player cheated in the Glorney Gilbert. If that is correct, then any such players let down their team mates and let down their country.
Andy Howie wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:11 pm
I can't speak for other federations, but Scotland takes online cheating in organised tournaments and leagues very very seriously. Anyone caught and proven to be cheating faces up to a 5 year ban depending on age. The players up here all know me and know what I do so are motivated not to :D It is fair to say we read the riot act to our Glorney squads about what would happen if they disgraced our country in this manner. They took it to heart and despite not so good results, we had some amazing, fair, individual performances which is all I can ask of them
It pains me to have to say it, but congratulations on ensuring that Scottish juniors have higher standards,
Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:24 pm
Happily, a different person ran the juniors [at Guernsey] the next year and basically said what you did, pointing out that people won't think X or Y cheated, but a "BCF Junior" and how would they like it if they got the blame as someone else had cheated.
Exactly the situation in which the England juniors in the Glorney Gilbert competitions have now been placed.

Mick Norris
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Mick Norris » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:25 pm

Without naming them, are any of the juniors banned by lichess playing in the ECF county Championship on chess.com?

Is the Controller aware of who has been banned?

We have 2 weeks until the finals, and we know there was some cheating in the group stage. 1 of my teammates only played the semifinal as Surrey graciously agreed to use Zoom for the game
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:51 pm

The answer is yes, I’ve spotted 3. I’ve sent you a message.

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Paul Robert Jackson
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Paul Robert Jackson » Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:17 pm

Is there any evidence of junior players who have been caught cheating, having 3rd party assistance from other individuals (friends, family etc.)?
Paul Robert Jackson

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:40 pm

There was an incident discussed from the Irish International Open last year, which Justin has previously provided a link to. https://www.chess.com/blog/GaborHorvath ... -a-cheater
Probably that was a case of friends and hand signals.
It's difficult to say with online chess, as it seems rare for anybody to hold their hand up an admit anything unless you're a titled player trying to get back onto chess.com

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:02 pm

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:40 pm
There was an incident discussed from the Irish International Open last year, which Justin has previously provided a link to.
Oh yes, I'd forgotten that.

While I'm here, tell me what you think this player, presently rated 2392, is doing in games like these.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:46 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:02 pm

While I'm here, tell me what you think this player presently rated 2392, is doing in these.
Managing a rating downwards is a possibility. Another is that it's a player who plays as a beginner without engine assistance. Is "rating management" against lichess terms and conditions? Perhaps he or she found the move rate too fast?

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