To which equipment do you believe they have access?Ian Thompson wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:05 amIn a hybrid event they've got the equipment in the playing room so it should be easier to cheat.
Cheating in chess
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Re: Cheating in chess
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Re: Cheating in chess
A laptop.NickFaulks wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:09 amTo which equipment do you believe they have access?Ian Thompson wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:05 amIn a hybrid event they've got the equipment in the playing room so it should be easier to cheat.
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Re: Cheating in chess
I was the Local Chief Arbiter at the England venue for the European Youth and Junior Hybrid Championships 2021.Kevin Thurlow wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:03 amI do recall a report from a telephone match in the National Club event, where each team had an arbiter present and the other team's arbiter announced at one point, "We are claiming the game..." which doesn't sound entirely unbiased.
You do find yourself rooting for your players, at least subconsciously. Moreover, in the event of a dispute, it is your duty to ensure that your player's account of what happened is clearly submitted, unless you believe it to be blatantly untrue. The decision at first instance will be made by your Sector Arbiter and the Sector Arbiter for the other player, and they are indeed completely neutral figures.
In the England v USSR match played by Telex on 3rd April 1982, there was a very lengthy wait at the London end for a move in the Psakhis v Speelman game. A request by England for the Soviets to confirm that they were on move produced an immediate response giving a move. Clearly someone in Moscow had failed to transmit the move when made, either accidentally or deliberately.NickFaulks wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:27 amMy impression is that [the old Telex matches] were regarded with some distaste, but only because move transmission was slow and they took forever. Were there also suspicions of cheating, given that players did not know what was going on at the other end of the line? In any case, both issues are now fixed.
Psakhis may well have been completely innocent, but he benefited enormously from this. He was short of time for the last few moves before the time control, but owing to the delay he never had to make them. Play ceased at the appointed time and the game was adjudicated as a win for Psakhis.
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Re: Cheating in chess
Agreed. In an OTB game there is also an opponent sitting there watching the board and player almost constantly, and with an extremely vested interest in ensuring that no illicit stockfishing is taking place. With the greatest respect and best will in the world, arbiters have neither the same investment in the individual game nor the same ability to watch a single board in an undistracted fashion.Ian Thompson wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:05 amI'm not convinced by that argument. In an OTB event the cheat's first challenge is to get undetected access to electronic equipment to facilitate the cheating. In a hybrid event they've got the equipment in the playing room so it should be easier to cheat.NickFaulks wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:27 amit is no easier to cheat in a properly run hybrid event than OTB. In fact it should be harder, because there will always be an arbiter nearby, rather than at the far end of the room.
And while all UK arbiters are perfect, and no doubt every arbiter everywhere in the world acts with integrity beyond reproach, the below passage from the FIDE arbiters manual must be based on *something*.
"It is not acceptable for the Arbiters to leave the playing area every 10 or 15 minutes to smoke or vape, nor for any conversations with friends, spectators, officials, or other persons, nor to leave their sector unattended in order to go and watch other games in another part of the playing hall. It is not acceptable for the Arbiters to stay seated in their chairs reading newspapers or books (even chess books!), nor to sit in front of a computer, surfing the Internet, etc., leaving their games without supervision."
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Re: Cheating in chess
I'm afraid I disagree with this assessment of ease of cheating. I wonder if Ian has ever witnessed a Hybrid event to make such a claim.Ian Thompson wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:05 amIn an OTB event the cheat's first challenge is to get undetected access to electronic equipment to facilitate the cheating. In a hybrid event they've got the equipment in the playing room so it should be easier to cheat.
Assuming the player is using his own computer as this is the norm, then precautions are taken.
1. The onsite arbiter will inspect the toolbar to ensure that no 'banned' software is running before play starts. The remote arbiter will monitor throughout.
2. The player will be screen sharing with the technical assistant and the remote Chief Arbiter. Both will be monitoring.
3. The player will have a camera on them from their computer and also a remote camera. These will be monitored throughout.
4. The ratio of arbiter to player is significantly higher than for normal OTB. The arbiter will therefore be closer to watch.
I am not stupid enough to say that cheating is impossible in these circumstances, but I will say that it is far more difficult to do and that the chances of being caught are significantly higher if it is attempted.
In OTB a good cheat will be able to assess the level of supervision given when consulting the external source. This is not possible in Hybrid as there is no way of knowing if your screen sharing is being monitored nor if the video link is being watched.
Finally, if a player does manage to complete a game without being caught at the time then the game analysis software might indicate where a closer look at the recorded video evidence should be made. Enhancing/enlarging the picture image has been known to produce 'interesting' result.
With regard to Joseph Conlon's quote from the FIDE Arbiters' Manual, from comments by me, that has less to do with cheating than the belief of some arbiters that they can sit at their desk throughout. FIDE is trying to educate arbiters that they should be proactive. The days of an Arbiter thinking it acceptable to announce before the start of play "If you have any problems come and speak to me at my desk." are nearing an end (hopefully!).
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Re: Cheating in chess
The arbiter being about on site gives some comfort, in principle the rest is all entirely possible to game with enough determination/effort. In general you simply shouldn't trust anything that a computer that someone owns is telling you.
If people started doing that you could make them start using fixed computers rather than their own of course when you probably would be genuinely more secure.
If people started doing that you could make them start using fixed computers rather than their own of course when you probably would be genuinely more secure.
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Re: Cheating in chess
That is how I started off thinking, and I originally wanted all hardware to be provided by the organisers. However, people whom I respect and who have much more specialist knowledge than I do are confident that a computer can be satisfactorily "neutered" for the duration of the game, so I am willing to trust their judgement.MartinCarpenter wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:57 amIn general you simply shouldn't trust anything that a computer that someone owns is telling you.
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Re: Cheating in chess
I doubt that's true. Linux source code is publicly available, so you're vulnerable to modifications to it that would be very difficult to detect without a forensic examination of the computer.NickFaulks wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:42 amThat is how I started off thinking, and I originally wanted all hardware to be provided by the organisers. However, people whom I respect and who have much more specialist knowledge than I do are confident that a computer can be satisfactorily "neutered" for the duration of the game, so I am willing to trust their judgement.MartinCarpenter wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:57 amIn general you simply shouldn't trust anything that a computer that someone owns is telling you.
There's also the possibility of hardware additions or modifications where you'd have to take the computer apart to have any chance of finding them. Even that wouldn't detect standard hardware that had been reprogrammed.
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Re: Cheating in chess
Came across this today - which is so brazen I wonder whether it is just a joke or (maybe even a trap)!
https://talismanzero.com/talisman.html
https://talismanzero.com/talisman.html
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Re: Cheating in chess
Wonder whether someone could explain something to me regarding devices such as TZ just mentioned by Alex. I can follow that the processor might be located far enough away to escape detection and also that the processor might communicate with the player via a tiny earpiece, also hard to detect, but how exactly does the player communicate moves played to the processor?
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Re: Cheating in chess
Why not ask [email protected]?
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Re: Cheating in chess
Nick, I'm not sure TZ are in the business of supplying free information, particularly if it's information that might assist detection, but in any case my question wasn't specific to TZ. I can see that, for a player to communicate to a processor, s/he needs only to type four symbols (for example e2e4) but how does one manage that accurately but unobtrusively?
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Re: Cheating in chess
They're not going to sell many then, are they?Roger Lancaster wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 1:24 pmNick, I'm not sure TZ are in the business of supplying free information
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Re: Cheating in chess
"They're not got to sell many then, are they?"
Or, they could be lying... If they don't send the alleged item, it is difficult for would-be purchasers to complain too much!
I assume someone will order one just to try to work out how to combat it.
Or, they could be lying... If they don't send the alleged item, it is difficult for would-be purchasers to complain too much!
I assume someone will order one just to try to work out how to combat it.
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Re: Cheating in chess
The target market for a product like this seems to be idiots who think that real chess players are naive enough to just happily accept they were defeated by brilliancies every game and it was in no way an engine - I actually hope it is a scam and anyone who buys one gets royally ripped off, serves them right for wanting to cheat.
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.