Cheating in chess

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
PeterFinn
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:09 am

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by PeterFinn » Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:50 am

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:01 am
Actually, having looked at his graph, this 'getting back to 1500' theory is simply wrong as an explanation as to what he's doing now.

He has dropped back to around 1500 twice. May 2019 and August 2020.

Over the last six months - despite all the deliberate losses - he's not been below 1850.
I had noticed he'd been to 1500 twice and that was my theory to explain what he was doing during those periods. Why he's occasionally throwing games now I have no idea.

User avatar
JustinHorton
Posts: 10364
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:06 am
Location: Somewhere you're not

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:05 am

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:21 am
just let it go.
Why don't you?

You spend an awful lot of time telling people not to bother about things that bother them.

Doesn't matter what it is, along comes the funniest man in chess to say that whoever's having their time wasted or their patience exhausted should just take the hit to time and patience alike.

It's kind of a strain on time and patience itself.

You'd think you could take your own advice.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Jonathan Bryant
Posts: 3452
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:59 am

PeterFinn wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:50 am
Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:01 am
Actually, having looked at his graph, this 'getting back to 1500' theory is simply wrong as an explanation as to what he's doing now.

He has dropped back to around 1500 twice. May 2019 and August 2020.

Over the last six months - despite all the deliberate losses - he's not been below 1850.
I had noticed he'd been to 1500 twice and that was my theory to explain what he was doing during those periods. Why he's occasionally throwing games now I have no idea.

Not “occasionally”. It’s multiple times a day.


Over the last two days alone there's been at least ten deliberately lost games. That's not counting all losses. Just the very obvious ones when they either
(a) resign after a few moves
(b) resign in a winning position
(c) deliberately give all their pieces away.


There's even been another one since the last example I posted last night.


So "occasionally" is very much the opposite of what's actually going on.


UPDATE:
Actually, on reflection I'm not sure about this morning's one so let's just call it 9 in the last two days.

John McKenna

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by John McKenna » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:48 am

Breaking news -

The Woodward & Bernstein of chess are back in tandem!! Like a pair of bloodhounds they sniff out where the bones are buried. Unlike other canines they never bury any bones themselves. Funny that.

Matthew Turner
Posts: 3600
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:48 am

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:59 am

Over the last two days alone there's been at least ten deliberately lost games. That's not counting all losses. Just the very obvious ones when they either
(a) resign after a few moves
(b) resign in a winning position
(c) deliberately give all their pieces away.
Thinking about this I am not sure that any of these things are against the rules as such. They would be if they were designed to deflate the player's rating (or inflate someone else's), but that doesn't generally appear to be what is happening here. So, whilst it is bizarre and unexplained behaviour, I am not clear on what grounds Lichess could/would issue a flagging based on the current games.

User avatar
JustinHorton
Posts: 10364
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:06 am
Location: Somewhere you're not

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:50 am

"Users who don’t behave with good conduct may have their account banned or closed without warning"

Deliberately losing games is not good conduct and doing so on multiple occasions all the more so.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

John McKenna

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by John McKenna » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:02 am

I've heard of the theory of everything...

This discussion has now begun to plumb the depths of the theory of nothing.

Nothing ventured and nothing gained.
Last edited by John McKenna on Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Matthew Turner
Posts: 3600
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:06 am

Justin,
Yes, Lichess could (and possibly should) invoke that catch all phrase.

The sentence continues
"Users who don’t behave with good conduct may have their account banned or closed without warning, and their content removed from the site. In all circumstances we reserve the right to ban or close an account for any reason without warning, and without having to provide evidence that Fair Play and Community Guidelines have been breached."

I think there is an implication that a player will only be banned if (in the opinion of the administrators) the fair play and community guidelines have been breached. Strictly speaking I am not sure that is the case here.
I don't want to get bogged down in the semantics of all of this. I am really just saying I see why people think it is obvious that the player should be banned, but also why Lichess might not do so.

John McKenna

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by John McKenna » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:29 am

I get the increasing impression that the forum has gradually been turning into a league of some kind of gentlemen. One that anyone with any common sense would not wish to be in league with. So, I'm counting myself out. (Which I'm sure will please some greatly but it pleases me more.)

Carry on pleasing yourselves by all means, gentlemen.

Or by none, which is what you are doing here.

Jonathan Bryant
Posts: 3452
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:29 am

Matthew Turner wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:48 am
Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:59 am

Over the last two days alone there's been at least ten deliberately lost games. That's not counting all losses. Just the very obvious ones when they either
(a) resign after a few moves
(b) resign in a winning position
(c) deliberately give all their pieces away.
Thinking about this I am not sure that any of these things are against the rules as such. They would be if they were designed to deflate the player's rating (or inflate someone else's) ....
This isn't correct.



Matt Fletcher posted the terms of service a couple of pages back
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7324&start=2445#p263708


The document itself is here.

https://lichess.org/terms-of-service





the specific breach of the terms of service is:-
"Artificially inflating or deflating your rating. This is where a User purposefully loses, or has arranged with an opponent to win. As a result, the User’s rating will artificially increase or decrease."

As you can see, there's nothing about intention or what the behaviour was 'designed" to do. I'm not sure where you get that from but it's not in the lichess terms of service.


For the record, the obvious deliberately lost games over the past two days amount to an "artificial decrease" in Fred''s rating of around 60 points.

As for whether s/he's purposefully losing games, I'd say that was beyond any reasonable doubt.

Paul Cooksey
Posts: 1519
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:15 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:31 am

Oh dear. Am I going to have to stop playing the Morra since it is artificially deflating my rating?

Matthew Turner
Posts: 3600
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:52 am

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:29 am
Matthew Turner wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:48 am
Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:59 am

Over the last two days alone there's been at least ten deliberately lost games. That's not counting all losses. Just the very obvious ones when they either
(a) resign after a few moves
(b) resign in a winning position
(c) deliberately give all their pieces away.
Thinking about this I am not sure that any of these things are against the rules as such. They would be if they were designed to deflate the player's rating (or inflate someone else's) ....
This isn't correct.



Matt Fletcher posted the terms of service a couple of pages back
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7324&start=2445#p263708


The document itself is here.

https://lichess.org/terms-of-service





the specific breach of the terms of service is:-
"Artificially inflating or deflating your rating. This is where a User purposefully loses, or has arranged with an opponent to win. As a result, the User’s rating will artificially increase or decrease."

As you can see, there's nothing about intention or what the behaviour was 'designed" to do. I'm not sure where you get that from but it's not in the lichess terms of service.


For the record, the obvious deliberately lost games over the past two days amount to an "artificial decrease" in Fred''s rating of around 60 points.

As for whether s/he's purposefully losing games, I'd say that was beyond any reasonable doubt.
It would appear the player has been purposefully losing games, but I am not sure that you can say that they have been purposefully losing games to deflate or increase their rating. Over the last couple of days the rating has gone up 50 or 60 points.

John McKenna

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by John McKenna » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:54 am

Ever thought that your subject mighf be reading this and toying with you all.

User avatar
JustinHorton
Posts: 10364
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:06 am
Location: Somewhere you're not

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:59 am

Purposefully losing rated games necessarily deflates one's rating.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Graham Borrowdale
Posts: 292
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Graham Borrowdale » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:00 am

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:31 am
Oh dear. Am I going to have to stop playing the Morra since it is artificially deflating my rating?
My thoughts entirely, although substitute poor opening of your choice.
Personally, I find online chess a bit of fun, while we wait for OTB to return. It’s a place to unwind, and try different openings or ideas, with nothing at stake. Another factor is the bad habit, a bit like chasing your bets, of playing ‘one more game’, despite being tired and on a losing streak, and watching your rating plummet. That’s not cheating, it’s just playing badly.
John McKenna wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:54 am

Ever thought that your subject mighf be reading this and toying with you all.
John, I thought you had left the scene of the crime?