Cheating in chess

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Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:20 am

I think I understand a bit more now. I searched all the games that were less than 10 moves and you can explain quite a lot of the losses. There are instant resignations against anyone with a question mark (i.e. without an established rating). The others generally involve a terrible mistake which looks to be down to a pre-move/automove. As some example we have

https://lichess.org/K0Ak9rWf#18

Presumably Qxd8 was intended but the Queen feel a square short (we've all done it)

https://lichess.org/gcxl0dk1

Clearly Bd3 was intended, but Qd3 was played

These errors are perhaps more common than one would expect, but could it be that Freddy1963 is not in fact a rating, but rather a date of birth, in which case mouseslips are perhaps more understandable.

Matt Fletcher
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matt Fletcher » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:26 am

Matthew Turner wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:20 am
I think I understand a bit more now. I searched all the games that were less than 10 moves and you can explain quite a lot of the losses. There are instant resignations against anyone with a question mark (i.e. without an established rating). The others generally involve a terrible mistake which looks to be down to a pre-move/automove. As some example we have

https://lichess.org/K0Ak9rWf#18

Presumably Qxd8 was intended but the Queen feel a square short (we've all done it)

https://lichess.org/gcxl0dk1

Clearly Bd3 was intended, but Qd3 was played

These errors are perhaps more common than one would expect, but could it be that Freddy1963 is not in fact a rating, but rather a date of birth, in which case mouseslips are perhaps more understandable.
The most recent games, maybe (though I think it’s a very charitable reading of what’s going on). Not the 67 in a row - take a look at these and tell me it’s mouseslips...

https://lichess.org/@/freddy1963/search ... order=desc

Same point goes to Graham’s response - this isn’t someone losing a few games due to poor openings / mouseslips (unless you count playing 1.f3 2.g4 over and over as just a poor opening).

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:42 am

Graham Borrowdale wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:00 am
Another factor is the bad habit, a bit like chasing your bets, of playing ‘one more game’, despite being tired and on a losing streak, and watching your rating plummet. That’s not cheating, it’s just playing badly
That's true - but that's not what he's doing at the moment. For some time he's been interspersing obvious deliberate losses with many wins. That's easily seen just be looking at his record.



Graham Borrowdale wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:00 am
Paul Cooksey wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:31 am
Oh dear. Am I going to have to stop playing the Morra since it is artificially deflating my rating?
My thoughts entirely, although substitute poor opening of your choice.

Well as it happens the reason why I got interested in this guy is because against me he gave away all his pieces in consecutive moves after a dozen moves of perfect Caro Kann theory.

Your concern doesn't match his record either. Playing rubbish openings is a perfectly legitimate - and common - blitz tactic. There's a big difference between that and what's going on with our fellow Freddy.





As for the mouse slip theory - well how do you explain Qxd7 at the end of this game ...


https://lichess.org/Wx70Qor6#26


or the multiple games when he gives pieces away in consecutive moves
or the multiple games in which he resigns in winning positions

?


I'm all for looking charitably on people where possible but inventing your own version of the lichess rules, inventing explanations that don't fit the games as they've been played, ignoring all the games that don't fit the explanation you're putting forward -

well I think that's somewhat more than bending over backwards to be fair.
Last edited by Jonathan Bryant on Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:45 am

Matthew Turner wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:52 am

It would appear the player has been purposefully losing games, but I am not sure that you can say that they have been purposefully losing games to deflate or increase their rating.
Well I have my own view on that - but as demonstrated above, it is not necessary to say that they have been purposefully losing games to <insert any intention here>


For whatever reason you seem reluctant to accept that this account is breaking the lichess rules even though it clearly is. Well each to their own. I'll leave you to that view if you want it.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:52 am

Matt Fletcher wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:26 am
unless you count playing 1.f3 2.g4 over and over as just a poor opening
This is absolutely my favourite aspect of the whole business, especially when the opponents don't then play the strongest move.
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Paul Cooksey
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:58 am

I brought up playing poor openings because I don't think having fun in a way that impacts your results is exactly cheating, unless you then take advantage of your lower rating in some way. I think this is connected to the point Matthew is making.

Of course he is being, in Jonathan's idiom, a bellend. I think you can criticise lichess for not dealing with people who are being bellends well enough on this evidence. But I don't think it has direct relevance to whether they are doing a good job with cheats.

Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:01 pm

Jonathan,
I am simply trying to maintain an open mind on this

In the game you highlighted
https://lichess.org/Wx70Qor6#26

It ends with the terrible blunder Qxd7. You could explain this in a couple of ways. The LIchess engine suggests that Qd4 is the best move so perhaps this was intended and there a mouseslip (albeit a substantial one!). Alternatively, d6 is an outpost, so you may go to play Qd6, before realizing that you haven't in fact castled yet. In trying to retract the move you accidentally play Qxd7. I appreciate that you may feel that I am performing mental gymnastics to support the player, but I really aren't. It is a fundamental principle of cheat detection that you have a null hypothesis of innocence and that is what you are looking for.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:06 pm

Here's my game with him.

Perfect theory - albeit after very curious thinking time on move 2 and 3 - then ... Well what would you call it? A lot of mouse slips?




Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:06 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:45 am
Matthew Turner wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:52 am

It would appear the player has been purposefully losing games, but I am not sure that you can say that they have been purposefully losing games to deflate or increase their rating.
Well I have my own view on that - but as demonstrated above, it is not necessary to say that they have been purposefully losing games to <insert any intention here>


For whatever reason you seem reluctant to accept that this account is breaking the lichess rules even though it clearly is. Well each to their own. I'll leave you to that view if you want it.
The terms of service say
2. Artificially inflating or deflating your rating. This is where a User purposefully loses, or has arranged with an opponent to win. As a result, the User’s rating will artificially increase or decrease.

That seems to me to link purposefully losing to artificially inflating or deflating rating.

Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:16 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:06 pm
Here's my game with him.

Perfect theory - albeit after very curious thinking time on move 2 and 3 - then ... Well what would you call it? A lot of mouse slips?



I don't know why he spent over two minutes on move 3 in a five minute game, perhaps he had to answer the door, the internet went down or the dog started barking. As for the moves, the most obvious explanation would appear to me that he intended 17. Qb5 but slipped to a6. After that he just gave up and gave away all his pieces. He moved instantly and he didn't carry on until mate, so it isn't like he was trying to be overly obnoxious. In isolation, it is hard to see this as a major transgression.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:30 pm

Is there any reason to see this game in isolation
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:48 pm

No reason to see that game in isolation. I have played through a lot of this guy's games (from recently) and I'm not entirely clear that he is is purposefully losing. He does some strange things and I guess he has a bit of a an attitude.

Take this game
https://lichess.org/Bf24NO2q/black#10

Perfectly sensible first 5 moves then he suddenly resigns - irrefutable evidence of purposefully losing surely?
However, if you look at the move times it show his opponent taking 22 seconds on move 6. So, possibly Freddy just got bored and decided to resign and play someone else. That must happen a lot online and I'm not sure we'd want an algorithm that banned people for doing this.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:52 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:58 am

Of course he is being, in Jonathan's idiom, a bellend. I think you can criticise lichess for not dealing with people who are being bellends well enough on this evidence. But I don't think it has direct relevance to whether they are doing a good job with cheats.
I'll second that.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:04 pm

"I don't know why he spent over two minutes on move 3 in a five minute game, perhaps he had to answer the door, the internet went down or the dog started barking."

I can confirm all of the above have made me spend weird time on a move, so you can't take that in isolation.

I agree that the person in question may well be a waste of oxygen.

NickFaulks
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:05 pm

I think it's just some guy with a slightly addled personality, made worse by being locked down for a year, and he's taken to drink.
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