I had no idea you were interested in important mattersGeoff Chandler wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:18 amI'm actually doing my best, in my own sweet way, to say there are more important
matters
Cheating in chess
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Re: Cheating in chess
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
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Re: Cheating in chess
My friend Angus - frequent visitor here - points out an example when somebody did get banned for a number of Scholars mate games ... although in this case he was winning against his 5 year old brother who didn't know any better.
https://twitter.com/angusjfrench/status ... 3365534734
So it seems that sometimes Lichess do ban for this sort of thing. Or did. Angus says this happened a "while ago". Perhaps the policy has changed since then.
It would certainly be an odd state of affairs to ban people for deliberately winning games by scholars mate but not for deliberately losing games by that method.
https://twitter.com/angusjfrench/status ... 3365534734
So it seems that sometimes Lichess do ban for this sort of thing. Or did. Angus says this happened a "while ago". Perhaps the policy has changed since then.
It would certainly be an odd state of affairs to ban people for deliberately winning games by scholars mate but not for deliberately losing games by that method.
The Abysmal Depths of Chess: https://theabysmaldepthsofchess.blogspot.com
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Re: Cheating in chess
Hi Justin,
"I had no idea you were interested in important matters."
I'm plugging my book!
"I had no idea you were interested in important matters."
I'm plugging my book!
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Re: Cheating in chess
It's a piece about covid testing, but the application of Bayes's Theorem seems also relevant to the question of how many false positives are being detected by the cheat finder methods.
As a summary, the smaller the proportion of people using engine assistance/ having covid, the greater the relative proportion of false accusations/ false diagnosis.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... robability
As a summary, the smaller the proportion of people using engine assistance/ having covid, the greater the relative proportion of false accusations/ false diagnosis.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... robability
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Re: Cheating in chess
How can they possibly know (or even estimate) the rate of false positives?John Hodgson wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:58 pmAccording to chess.com, "the rate of false positives detected by our algorithm is intentional."
Does anyone know what this rate is, and what we think this rate should be?
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Re: Cheating in chess
The fundamental difference though is that in order to assess the false positive rate of covid lateral flow testing you have options, such as testing with PCR and comparing the results.Roger de Coverly wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:06 pmIt's a piece about covid testing, but the application of Bayes's Theorem seems also relevant to the question of how many false positives are being detected by the cheat finder methods.
As a summary, the smaller the proportion of people using engine assistance/ having covid, the greater the relative proportion of false accusations/ false diagnosis.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... robability
There's no reliable way for chess.com or lichess to really know what the rate of false positive of their algorithms actually is.
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Re: Cheating in chess
With a sufficiently large pool of trustworthy volunteers, they could attempt an experiment whereby they asked some volunteers to use engine assistance all the time some of them some of the time and others not at all. That would check the reliability or otherwise of their detection methods. In addition the part of their methods which uses the quality of play can be tested against pre engine historical games and contemporary correspondence games.Paolo Casaschi wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:18 pm
There's no reliable way for chess.com or lichess to really know what the rate of false positive of their algorithms actually is.
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Re: Cheating in chess
How would we be able to evaluate their results
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
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Re: Cheating in chess
Roger de Coverly wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:08 pmWith a sufficiently large pool of trustworthy volunteers, they could attempt an experiment whereby they asked some volunteers to use engine assistance all the time some of them some of the time and others not at all. That would check the reliability or otherwise of their detection methods. In addition the part of their methods which uses the quality of play can be tested against pre engine historical games and contemporary correspondence games.Paolo Casaschi wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:18 pm
There's no reliable way for chess.com or lichess to really know what the rate of false positive of their algorithms actually is.
All of Roger's suggestions could be done without involving chess.com or lichess. A sufficiently large group of volunteers could do it themselves. I'm surprised somebody hasn't done it already.
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Re: Cheating in chess
I am missing something here - whose detection methods is this research using
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
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Re: Cheating in chess
By "without involving chess.com or lichess ", I meant without telling them you were doing the analysis on their site and of their methods.JustinHorton wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:04 pmI am missing something here - whose detection methods is this research using
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Re: Cheating in chess
Ah OK, I think I understand now. But presumably without their involvement, our only criteria are going to be who gets caught and who doesn't (and for that matter, who gets "caught" but didn't do anything wrong) but we wouldn't have any clear idea what procedures were in place and how decisions were come to.
(That's aside from, ah, various ethical issues involved.)
(That's aside from, ah, various ethical issues involved.)
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
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Re: Cheating in chess
But there is a credible explanation - he's deliberately losing.Matthew Turner wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:37 amHuman observation of the games offers no credible explanation for the player's play.
The Abysmal Depths of Chess: https://theabysmaldepthsofchess.blogspot.com
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Re: Cheating in chess
That's not quite accurate. Our criteria is going to be who gets banned and who doesn't.JustinHorton wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:26 pm... , our only criteria are going to be who gets caught and who doesn't ....
Have Lichess really not had a look at Freddy and seen what he's up to? I doubt it. Much more likely is that they know (he's been 'caught') and, for whatever reason, they've concluded they're OK with stuff like this from yesterday:-
Last edited by Jonathan Bryant on Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Abysmal Depths of Chess: https://theabysmaldepthsofchess.blogspot.com
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Re: Cheating in chess
Yes, but for what purpose?Jonathan Bryant wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:09 amBut there is a credible explanation - he's deliberately losing.Matthew Turner wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:37 amHuman observation of the games offers no credible explanation for the player's play.