Cheating in chess

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NickFaulks
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:45 pm

"2. The appointment of ACC
In March 2017 Fide PB finally nominated the members of the ACC and confirmed its Secretary for the extant part of the term, thus ending a period of stagnation that had been fostered by a series of personal accusations that were ultimately proven to be unsubstantiated."

If you think these words suggest a degree of personal animosity, you understand only half of it.
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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:03 am

" Of course, this has to be done cum grano salis, and the random check strategy should be carefully evaluated by the OACC Board and Chair."

Page 7, I love it when they say things like that.

Stealing the comment from a Rumpole book,

"Are you saying it's cum grano salis?"

"In Peckham, they speak of little else."

"If you think these words suggest a degree of personal animosity, you understand only half of it."

Tell us more...

Mike Gunn
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Mike Gunn » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:41 pm

From #3 of the ACC report linked to by Nick above:

"The ACC wishes to thank Ethics for its hard work, especially in the case regarding the Chavki
2015 incident, which required the exercise of extreme moderation and a ground-breaking
ruling on the subject of witch-hunting that set an important precedent for future cases."

Now "extreme moderation" is a type of moderation I can go along with ...

Mick Norris
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:00 am

4 players convicted in Italy
The 19-year-old IM Pier Luigi Basso was suspended from competitive play for five months, the 52-year-old Russian grandmaster Igor Naumkin (who lives in Italy) was suspended for six months and the 32-year-old IM Angelo Damia was suspended for seven months for throwing games at a different tournament in 2013.

The 24-year-old IM Andrea Stella, who scored a GM norm in Montebelluna, was only reprimanded for rude behavior, and was urged not to repeat this.

The 63-year-old Croatian IM Milan Mrdja was also a subject of the investigation, as some of his losses were seen as suspicious by some, but he was found not guilty.
Any postings on here represent my personal views

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:42 am

It's not clear to me what the status of that court is - i.e. whether it's part of the legal system or of sports administration or in some way both.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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NickFaulks
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:50 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:42 am
It's not clear to me what the status of that court is - i.e. whether it's part of the legal system or of sports administration or in some way both.
It is an internal body of the Italian Chess Federation.
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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:26 pm

Ta. I'm not sure, that being so, that I'd use the word "court".
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:39 pm

I share your confusion, Justin. The article explicitly starts by saying "Italian federal court", though it does later qualify/expand that by using the term "Federal Court of First Instance of the Italian Chess Federation".

The closing paragraphs says: "dozens of witnesses were heard and many documents, text messages and chat conversations were investigated" and talks about a "federal prosecutor" and that there was a "jury" (but maybe this term has been mistranslated?).

You would have thought that only an actual legal court, properly constituted, would have the authority to compel witness testimony and to investigate text messages and chat conversations. If it was not a legal court, what was the standard of evidence gathering and preservation (and the standards for avoiding evidence tampering)?

David Robertson

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by David Robertson » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:17 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:50 am
It is an internal body of the Italian Chess Federation.
Correct That's what the Italian says
JustinHorton wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:26 pm
Ta. I'm not sure, that being so, that I'd use the word "court"
The Italian says Tribunale which is clear enough. The verdict and proceedings conform to court-style reportage.The hearing was heard by the Presidente and two Giudice (Judge)

Reading through the proceedings (svoglimenti), they don't mince words. Italian chess has become una lotta tra clan di mafie (a fight between Mafia clans); and una cricca di compravenditori (a gang of salesmen)

Ian Thompson
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Ian Thompson » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:27 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:00 am
4 players convicted in Italy
... the 52-year-old Russian grandmaster Igor Naumkin (who lives in Italy) was suspended for six months ...
I wish to make clear that the hard fought game I had against Mr. Naumkin in Italy in 2003 was a properly played game with no inducements offered or accepted by either player. Unfortunately, the game wasn't accurately recorded in databases, as it finished one move earlier than recorded.

Chris Rice
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Chris Rice » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:46 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:00 am
The 24-year-old IM Andrea Stella, who scored a GM norm in Montebelluna, was only reprimanded for rude behavior, and was urged not to repeat this.
Andrea Stella has just won the Plzen Open in the Czech Republic though admittedly he didn't play anyone as highly rated as he is as you can see from his results. As you can see he played Andrew Burnett from Scotland in the last round and Andrew had this to say on FB about the allegations:

"I lost to GM Andrea Stella in the final round of the Plzen Open in Czech on Saturday (I only needed a draw for 1st place outright :( ) and shared a bus ride to Prague with him on Sunday, during which he told me about all the allegations which had been made - describing them as nonsense and basically a bundle of lies from jealous fellow Italian players.
I don't think he knew yet that this verdict had been passed down by the Italian Federation Ethics Commission (or perhaps something was lost in translation during our conversation?!)
To be clear, I had never met him before this tournament but he certainly seems plenty strong enough as a player to not need to buy a norm.
I also noticed that Naumkin is due to play in a Czech event in January which I'll be playing :/ Anyway, topic worthy of discussion!"

Richard Bates
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Richard Bates » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:10 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:27 pm
Mick Norris wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:00 am
4 players convicted in Italy
... the 52-year-old Russian grandmaster Igor Naumkin (who lives in Italy) was suspended for six months ...
I wish to make clear that the hard fought game I had against Mr. Naumkin in Italy in 2003 was a properly played game with no inducements offered or accepted by either player. Unfortunately, the game wasn't accurately recorded in databases, as it finished one move earlier than recorded.
I wish to make clear that the game I had against Mr Naumkin at Lloyds Bank in 1993 is correctly recorded on databases and yes I really did resign in a winning position immediately after my opponent had blundered his queen (something I was blissfully unaware of for years until I noticed somebody had queried the finish on chessgames.com...)

NickFaulks
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:21 pm

Chris Rice wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:46 pm
he certainly seems plenty strong enough as a player to not need to buy a norm.
He was only reprimanded for rudeness, not obviously anything to do with corruption.
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David Robertson

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by David Robertson » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:50 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:21 pm
He was only reprimanded for rudeness
Yes
David Robertson wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:17 pm
Italian chess has become una lotta tra clan di mafie (a fight between Mafia clans); and una cricca di compravenditori (a gang of salesmen)
And checking back to the text, Stella's apparent 'rudeness' was the terms I've cited above, violating some article of the FSI code, which were expressed in a private conversation with an official(?) - though it says "una conversazione privata tra Stella e un altro tesserato" where 'tesserato' translates as 'member' (of FSI?). But my nuanced Italian runs out here

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:55 am

Richard Bates wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:10 pm

I wish to make clear that the game I had against Mr Naumkin at Lloyds Bank in 1993 is correctly recorded on databases and yes I really did resign in a winning position immediately after my opponent had blundered his queen (something I was blissfully unaware of for years until I noticed somebody had queried the finish on chessgames.com...)
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1283811

Hmm. Lots of tactics there. Presumably 32.d6 wins in some fashion as 32...gxh5 still fails to 33.Bd3 etc. Did your opponent 'forget' to play d6 before the capture on g6?