Cheating in chess

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LawrenceCooper
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:56 am

Emil is full of the joys of spring this morning:

Emil Sutovsky
24 mins ·
INSANE. SIMPLY INSANE.
I totally disagree with the decision of FIDE Ethics commission on Fraiman case. It is so difficult to catch a cheater. It is so rare that Anti-cheating commission comes up with the recommendation to ban a player, based on a statistical conclusion. Why do we need this unique and sophisticated Reagan method, if its results are neglected? It is simply weird : nearly all players and arbiters who witnessed Fraiman's play in the tournament are sure he was cheating. Arbiter did catch him with the phone switched on during the game. Reagan's method clearly indicates unusually high level of play, Anti-cheating commission led an year-long investigation and recommended to ban a player, and Ethics dismisses the case. INSANE. SIMPLY INSANE.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:59 am

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:56 am
Emil is full of the joys of spring this morning:

Emil Sutovsky
24 mins ·
INSANE. SIMPLY INSANE.
I totally disagree with the decision of FIDE Ethics commission on Fraiman case. It is so difficult to catch a cheater. It is so rare that Anti-cheating commission comes up with the recommendation to ban a player, based on a statistical conclusion. Why do we need this unique and sophisticated Reagan method, if its results are neglected? It is simply weird : nearly all players and arbiters who witnessed Fraiman's play in the tournament are sure he was cheating. Arbiter did catch him with the phone switched on during the game. Reagan's method clearly indicates unusually high level of play, Anti-cheating commission led an year-long investigation and recommended to ban a player, and Ethics dismisses the case. INSANE. SIMPLY INSANE.
Seemingly as a result of this ruling: http://ruchess.ru/upload/iblock/061/061 ... 2e223b.pdf

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:20 am

Presumably Sutovsky doesn't understand that statistics offer "probability", not "proof". I imagine that Fraiman will be under the microscope in future events.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:42 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:20 am
I imagine that Fraiman will be under the microscope in future events.
I thought it had become an agreed practice that phones and other devices were placed out of use whilst play is in progress. Russian arbiters were seemingly not adopting this practice until the tournament was almost over.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:44 am

I have a fair amount of sympathy with Sutovsky but I'd like to see him respond to the point made in paragraph 6, regarding the standard of proof required in such a case. I'm sure this came up in the epic-length thread on the International forum, but my view is that if they don't have a high standard of proof then what will happen sooner or later is that somebody gets banned, the case goes to CAS and CAS says it's afraid the the case against the player isn't proven and the ban is rescinded. And what happens then?
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:48 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:42 am
Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:20 am
I imagine that Fraiman will be under the microscope in future events.
I thought it had become an agreed practice that phones and other devices were placed out of use whilst play is in progress. Russian arbiters were seemingly not adopting this practice until the tournament was almost over.
Pragraph 12 of the judgement reads as follows:
12.
The ETH recommends that a standard practice be adopted in all FIDE rated events that the players’ mobile phones and other electronic devices be kept outside the playing area (see art. 11.3.2.1 of Laws of Chess).
I have to say that given that most competitors are amateurs, who may be travelling a distance to play each day and can't conveniently leave their phones behind, and that most competitions are run on a shoestring, without necessarily having the capacity or personnel to store those phones on site, I wouldn't mind some explanation as to how that's going to be possible.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:03 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:48 am
I wouldn't mind some explanation as to how that's going to be possible.
I don't think it necessary to go beyond what's now routine in British events, namely that the phone is completely switched off and either placed on the table next to the board or in a bag under the table. There was a specific intervention that an earlier FIDE proposal was simply unworkable for events involving amateurs.

I might express concern that spectators are not necessarily banned from following the game on their phone or laptop whilst still being in sight of players.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:18 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:03 am

I don't think it necessary to go beyond what's now routine in British events, namely that the phone is completely switched off and either placed on the table next to the board or in a bag under the table.
I don't either, but that's what is being recommended.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

NickFaulks
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:27 am

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:59 am
Seemingly as a result of this ruling: http://ruchess.ru/upload/iblock/061/061 ... 2e223b.pdf
A careful and well written Decision from Francois Strydom, which as usual gets straight to the point.
Francois Strydom wrote:5.The ETH finds the conclusion of the IC ambigious and confusing.
There's a thing. I was on the ACC ( then a Committee ) for its first year and warned persistently that their reliance on a statistical black box was flawed and would not survive any proper legal process. This was considered unhelpful and it was no surprise when my name, along with that of Shaun Press, was missing from the composition of the Commission.

It also comes as no surprise that Sutovsky's immediate reaction is to attack the body which has pointed out their inconsistencies and failures. It would be nice to think that there are members of the Commission who will pause to consider why ACC is getting this so wrong, but probably they have been sidelined.

This tournament does not appear to have been reported for rating.

NickFaulks
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:30 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:44 am
my view is that if they don't have a high standard of proof then what will happen sooner or later is that somebody gets banned, the case goes to CAS and CAS says it's afraid the the case against the player isn't proven and the ban is rescinded.
You are absolutely right. If they are struggling to get this past ETH they won't have a prayer with CAS. I have seen both in action.

NickFaulks
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:37 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:18 am
I don't either, but that's what is being recommended.
I wouldn't worry about that. ETH are making the point that the way things are currently being done is unsatisfactory and suggest one way of mending that. If an alternative method, more practical for players, could be found, then I'm sure they would be happy. I hope we can all agree that what happened in St Petersburg was no good.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:42 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:27 am
I was on the ACC ( then a Committee ) for its first year and warned persistently that their reliance on a statistical black box was flawed and would not survive any proper legal process.
The obvious form of cheating is where someone, who is already a decent player, retires periodically for a consultation with their phone. That might involve the calculation of some tactics, or a general assessment. That's only going to show up a limited correlation with engine suggestions and there's always the plausible denial that the positions had been analysed in private study and the engine moves remembered.

A more detailed analysis would require keeping track of when the player left the board and how their next move correlated with engine suggestions. For that matter leaving the board when to move is suspicious in itself and arbiters and opponents would be right to ask questions.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:45 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:37 am
ETH are making the point that the way things are currently being done is unsatisfactory and suggest one way of mending that.
If the agreed standard is that the phone should be out of use whilst play is in progress, then the St Petersburg organisers or arbiters weren't following this.

Nick Grey
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Nick Grey » Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:17 am

I was bemused by Maradona's comments about Neymar's
diving. The biggest cheater ever in football was obviously upset that argentina were not able to cheat their way through 2018!

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Stewart Reuben » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:02 pm

Roger > For that matter leaving the board when to move is suspicious<

That is why it is forbidden in the Laws without the arbiter's permission.

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