Cheating in chess

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NickFaulks
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:33 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:13 pm
NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:01 pm
Ian Thompson wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:50 pm
... at which point he'll become a spectator and have no right to be in the playing area at all.
Really? Where has that come from?
FIDE Rule 11.4 - "Players who have finished their games shall be considered to be spectators."

FIDE Rule 11.2.3.3 "Only with the permission of the arbiter can a person who is neither a player nor arbiter be allowed access to the playing area."
You're right. Olympiads are the only places where I have ever seen this oppressive possibility used, and I was thinking that was a local tournament rule.

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Stewart Reuben » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:40 pm

A player is playing a game. He moves. His opponent sits there for a bit and then wanders off. although his clock is going. The player doesn't know where he has gone to. It is not his job to seek him out. Thus, this very unusual action, would be perturbing. It is forbidden to distract or annoy the opponent.
So now he consults the arbiter. Of course this is distracting for him. He is allowed to think about the position even when it is not his move. But the arbiter doesn't know what the opponent looks like.
The player now nods off. The opponent sees this and comes back to the board and very quietly makes his move and presses the clock.
A law could be written to cover this type of eventuality. Why not rely on the distraction or bringing the game into disrepute laws?

By the way, it is specifically stated that an arbiter should not draw a player's attention to the fact that he has not pressed his clock. Similarly he mustn't advise a player that his clock is running, or that he has underlined say move 35 for the time control when in fact it is move 40.

There was a game in the Lloyds Bank Masters that commenced 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 Kd7 3 Nc3 and Black was not in the playing area for 10 minutes. When he returned, I asked where he had been. He said, 'In the toilet.' 'Well, I'm defaulting you,' I said. He eventually accepted it and played on in the tournament. He made no effort to appeal. I think neither were rated. I found White another opponent. Later I found out Black had had bets that he would play 2...Kd7. I think you can work out his approximate age.

Andy Stoker
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Andy Stoker » Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:24 pm

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 Kd7 Clever stuff - but we get the point. What were the grounds for default? Suspected communication with others outside the hall?

Stewart Reuben
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Location: writer

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Stewart Reuben » Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:34 pm

Andy. No, that never even occurred to me. It was bringing the game into disrepute. Just like Hou Yifan in Gibraltar.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:38 pm

The fuller picture of the game that Stewart remembers is that during the course of taking bets, the defaulted player was bringing attention to the game (in terms of onlookers) which might have been humiliating for his opponent. That is probably important in terms of understanding the decision. Or so I have always thought; if it is the moves by themselves which Stewart think justify such decisions, and Stewart would also have defaulted Hou Yifan, then I rather doubt the justification! Where is the line? Would he have defaulted White in Simon Williams v Martin Simons?

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:51 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:33 pm
Ian Thompson wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:13 pm
NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:01 pm

Really? Where has that come from?
FIDE Rule 11.4 - "Players who have finished their games shall be considered to be spectators."

FIDE Rule 11.2.3.3 "Only with the permission of the arbiter can a person who is neither a player nor arbiter be allowed access to the playing area."
You're right. Olympiads are the only places where I have ever seen this oppressive possibility used, and I was thinking that was a local tournament rule.
Total exclusion of those who are neither playing (including those whose games have ended) nor arbiting is, in fact, quite common in UK junior tournaments.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:01 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:51 pm
NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:33 pm
Ian Thompson wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:13 pm

FIDE Rule 11.4 - "Players who have finished their games shall be considered to be spectators."

FIDE Rule 11.2.3.3 "Only with the permission of the arbiter can a person who is neither a player nor arbiter be allowed access to the playing area."
You're right. Olympiads are the only places where I have ever seen this oppressive possibility used, and I was thinking that was a local tournament rule.
Total exclusion of those who are neither playing (including those whose games have ended) nor arbiting is, in fact, quite common in UK junior tournaments.
Also in FIDE junior events, team events etc

Stewart Reuben
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Location: writer

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Stewart Reuben » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:23 am

Jonathan. In 1977 Andrew Martin and Ian Watson played in the British U21. I had nothing to do with the event at that time. The pairing system used was lottery Swiss. They asked not to be paired together in an early round. Of course, the arbiter responded whatever will be, will be. Of course, they were paired together in round 1 or 2, First they placed their pawns on the third rank and then moved their pieces up to the second. Then they moved the pawns to the fourth and the pieces to the third. Then they agreed a draw and were forfeited by the late Harry Baines, then Chief Arbiter. What I don't understand was why they weren't forfeited some moves earlier?

The first Lloyds Bank Masters followed on the same month. I announced people could select three opponents against whom they did not want to be paired. In the case of Andrew and Ian, I would probably have given them the same colour in round 1. Such manipulations are no longer allowed in Swisses.

I loath concocted games. I would far prefer 1 e4 e5 draw agreed. That would be honest and fit in with the current rules.

The Kosinsteva sisters are famous for playing the same draw by repetition in the Exchange Ruy. UGH.

1973 a Scottish player played in the World Junior. it was the last round and he couldn't lose his position at the top tier of the fourth group. He was playing the Guernsey youngster. White's moves started something like 1 b3 2 d3 3 c3 4 Kc2 5 Kb2. Then the game continued and White won.
I met up with the Scot at Picketts Lock. I told the youngster off. His response, 'Well, nobody will notice. Bent Larsen was there as a lecturer. So I took the Scot long to meet Bent, hoping he had heard of this incident. I introduced them and explained that he was the Scottish representative in the World Junior. Bent reacted immediately. 'You should never do a thing like that'. Bent was number 3 in the world at that time.'
Oh, well. it was just a schoolboy prank? But I met up with the Guernsey player some years later and it obviously still rankled.

Richard Bates
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Richard Bates » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:44 am

A bit late in the day, but if you could arrange to be an arbiter in a couple of tournaments Mike Surtees is competing in and default him a few times it would be appreciated ;)

Richard Bates
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Richard Bates » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:46 am

Stewart Reuben wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:23 am
Jonathan. In 1977 Andrew Martin and Ian Watson played in the British U21. I had nothing to do with the event at that time. The pairing system used was lottery Swiss. They asked not to be paired together in an early round. Of course, the arbiter responded whatever will be, will be. Of course, they were paired together in round 1 or 2, First they placed their pawns on the third rank and then moved their pieces up to the second. Then they moved the pawns to the fourth and the pieces to the third. Then they agreed a draw and were forfeited by the late Harry Baines, then Chief Arbiter. What I don't understand was why they weren't forfeited some moves earlier?

The first Lloyds Bank Masters followed on the same month. I announced people could select three opponents against whom they did not want to be paired. In the case of Andrew and Ian, I would probably have given them the same colour in round 1. Such manipulations are no longer allowed in Swisses.

I loath concocted games. I would far prefer 1 e4 e5 draw agreed. That would be honest and fit in with the current rules.

The Kosinsteva sisters are famous for playing the same draw by repetition in the Exchange Ruy. UGH.

1973 a Scottish player played in the World Junior. it was the last round and he couldn't lose his position at the top tier of the fourth group. He was playing the Guernsey youngster. White's moves started something like 1 b3 2 d3 3 c3 4 Kc2 5 Kb2. Then the game continued and White won.
I met up with the Scot at Picketts Lock. I told the youngster off. His response, 'Well, nobody will notice. Bent Larsen was there as a lecturer. So I took the Scot long to meet Bent, hoping he had heard of this incident. I introduced them and explained that he was the Scottish representative in the World Junior. Bent reacted immediately. 'You should never do a thing like that'. Bent was number 3 in the world at that time.'
Oh, well. it was just a schoolboy prank? But I met up with the Guernsey player some years later and it obviously still rankled.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/che ... ition.html

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:34 am

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/che ... ition.html

Well remembered. "Anon" told me shortly afterwards that he hadn't received the money! Maybe he did later, as Stewart says, he wasn't delighted to be reminded.

NickFaulks
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:45 am

In today's Minor County final, the white pieces scored +10 =6 -0. That must be evidence of cheating.

Alan Atkinson
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Alan Atkinson » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:40 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:33 pm
Ian Thompson wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:13 pm
NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:01 pm

Really? Where has that come from?
FIDE Rule 11.4 - "Players who have finished their games shall be considered to be spectators."

FIDE Rule 11.2.3.3 "Only with the permission of the arbiter can a person who is neither a player nor arbiter be allowed access to the playing area."
You're right. Olympiads are the only places where I have ever seen this oppressive possibility used, and I was thinking that was a local tournament rule.
Actually, it is very useful too during junior events for managing players who have completed games, their parents and their team managers!

Stewart Reuben
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Location: writer

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Stewart Reuben » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:41 am

Nick. No, it is just evidence that each chess encounter should be one game with white and one with black. That would make chess a lot fairer.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Michael Farthing » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:05 pm

Perhaps with the added twist that remaining time from the first game is carried across to the second?

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