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Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:13 pm
by Roger de Coverly
Martin Crichton wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:55 am
It is a shame that someone (a teenager) once again has cheated using an electronic device ...also it appears that this has had a huge impact in the u-1850 tournament as he was only caught in the penultamit round 8.
The 4NCL are not disclosing how the supposed cheating was actually detected or indeed its exact nature.

The round 8 game appears to have been played to a finish, yet the player was excluded from the round 9 pairings. That implies detection took place between the rounds, rather than something detected during play. Scoring 8/8 with a grade well under 100 against opposition in the 100 to 140 range could be a cause of suspicion, so perhaps the 4NCL's metal detector was deployed. Alternatively, or perhaps as well, the "witchfinder" program was used to analyse the games from earlier rounds.

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:15 pm
by Martin Crichton
Carl Hibbard wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:56 am
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:33 pm
Might be an idea to redact the names of juniors when these sort of cases arise. When juniors are involved, the cases can be discussed without naming individuals.
I agree due to his age I have removed the name.
too late it is already up in Google cached memory and links directly to page 30 here on this website

that google thingy is fast and doesn't miss much!

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:16 pm
by Mike Gunn
During the time I was on the ECF board (2010-2013) two juniors were caught cheating in tournaments (using mobile phones in the toilet). As has been pointed out above (or in the other thread) the ECF has no written procedure for dealing with such cases, but each was given (in effect) a one year's ban after writing to the parents who were co-operative. I remember the argument being advanced at the time that we were dealing with children so one would hope that they would learn a lesson and not re-offend. There was no publicity about either of these cases. There is of course an argument that publicising such cases would deter others from committing the same offence. There was one very similar case (in Ireland?) which did receive very considerable publicity (and discussion) on here.

I an the person on the ECF Governance Committee with the responsibility for reviewing the Code of Conduct/ Complaints Procedure. If anyone can point me in the direction of codes and procedures in other sports which work well I would be grateful.

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:19 pm
by Roger de Coverly
Mick Norris wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:06 pm
What's the position with grading those games from July onwards?
They are already in the FIDE system and published, so presumably no changes there unless the FIDE Ethics or Fair Play Commission rules to remove them.

As far as the ECF are concerned, again the internal club results have already been submitted. Perhaps local enquiries will be made by the club or county association as to the legitimacy of the results. Longer term readers of this forum will be aware that the club concerned and the local county association haven't always been on the best of terms.

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:19 pm
by Matt Bridgeman
Tim Harding wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:40 pm
You have to wonder about his parents' view on this sudden change in his performances.
Were they helping him to perfect his cheating system?
Did they need the prize money?
It would be interesting to know what other entries he had lined up. Was the next stop the London Chess Classic? Perhaps he was thinking it would be cool to collect a FIDE title in the New Year. They did well to stop him when they did.

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:04 pm
by Martin Crichton
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:13 pm
Martin Crichton wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:55 am
It is a shame that someone (a teenager) once again has cheated using an electronic device ...also it appears that this has had a huge impact in the u-1850 tournament as he was only caught in the penultamit round 8.
The 4NCL are not disclosing how the supposed cheating was actually detected or indeed its exact nature.

The round 8 game appears to have been played to a finish, yet the player was excluded from the round 9 pairings. That implies detection took place between the rounds, rather than something detected during play. Scoring 8/8 with a grade well under 100 against opposition in the 100 to 140 range could be a cause of suspicion, so perhaps the 4NCL's metal detector was deployed. Alternatively, or perhaps as well, the "witchfinder" program was used to analyse the games from earlier rounds.
06.11.18 - During a routine Anti-Cheating check by the arbiting team during the 1st 4NCL International, a player was found to have used electronic means to assist them with their games.

After further investigation, that player was subsequently disqualified from the tournament. The details have been forwarded to the FIDE Fair Play Commission, and consequently it is not possible to comment further on the case at this time.

We have received a number of questions about the scores of the players in the tournament. Page 13 of the FIDE Anti-Cheating Guidelines, which are binding on us given the tournament is FIDE-rated, say the following:

“In an individual Open tournament, the offender shall be excluded from the final ranking. Each of the offender’s games shall be considered a loss, but the score for the opponent shall remain unchanged. All games shall be reported as unplayed.”

None of the 8 games played by the player have been submitted for FIDE rating, and they will not be submitted for ECF grading.

Alex Holowczak - Chief Arbiter, 1st 4NCL International


Electronic means...I said Electronic device.....is there a difference? ...I have no idea but it has to be some kind of electronic device unless the kid is a telephatic? :)

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:34 pm
by Brian Valentine
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:19 pm
Mick Norris wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:06 pm
What's the position with grading those games from July onwards?
They are already in the FIDE system and published, so presumably no changes there unless the FIDE Ethics or Fair Play Commission rules to remove them.

As far as the ECF are concerned, again the internal club results have already been submitted. Perhaps local enquiries will be made by the club or county association as to the legitimacy of the results. Longer term readers of this forum will be aware that the club concerned and the local county association haven't always been on the best of terms.
The ECF team grade all results submitted. We will not act as arbiters.

Submissions can be resubmitted by graders and we would be prepared to alter results if instructed by suitable authority from the ECF arbiter heirarchy, although I've never seen this latter part happen.

Brian Valentine
Manager ECF grading

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:04 pm
by Roger de Coverly
Martin Crichton wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:04 pm
Electronic means...I said Electronic device.....is there a difference? ...I have no idea but it has to be some kind of electronic device unless the kid is a telephatic? :)
The tournament was set up in a manner to facilitate casual cheating. All the games were broadcast, even the bottom section , so it would have been possible for an accomplice to sit in the hotel lobby monitoring the game on a laptop, tablet or smart phone. The coverage gives assessments and suggested lines of play. All the cheating player would have to do would be to pass through the hotel lobby and casually communicate with the accomplice.

Against that, if the player's internal club results were suspect, those wouldn't have been broadcast. Equally that method requires a certain amount of chess ability if the board is not left every move.

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:07 pm
by David Sedgwick
Brian Valentine wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:34 pm

Submissions can be resubmitted by graders and we would be prepared to alter results if instructed by suitable authority from the ECF arbiter heirarchy, although I've never seen this latter part happen.

Brian Valentine
Manager ECF grading
So if a result needs to be changed after submission (nothing to do with cheating), you have to ask your grader to resubmit the entire file?

That wasn't necessary in the good old days. You contacted Richard Haddrell and explained the circumstances, and he amended the result for you.

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:31 pm
by Kevin Thurlow
"So if a result needs to be changed after submission (nothing to do with cheating), you have to ask your grader to resubmit the entire file?

That wasn't necessary in the good old days. You contacted Richard Haddrell and explained the circumstances, and he amended the result for you."

And on at least one occasion, a player's games weren't graded as somebody (not DS) decided the player deliberately lost them and told RH. Sadly they didn't tell the player, and when one of his opponents (who had laboured for hours to win the game) found out, he was furious! This is the sort of thing I alluded to earlier.

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:28 pm
by Brian Valentine
David Sedgwick wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:07 pm
Brian Valentine wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:34 pm

Submissions can be resubmitted by graders and we would be prepared to alter results if instructed by suitable authority from the ECF arbiter heirarchy, although I've never seen this latter part happen.

Brian Valentine
Manager ECF grading
So if a result needs to be changed after submission (nothing to do with cheating), you have to ask your grader to resubmit the entire file?

That wasn't necessary in the good old days. You contacted Richard Haddrell and explained the circumstances, and he amended the result for you.
I wasn't suggesting Matt Carr would not be helpful in such situations.

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:50 pm
by Carl Hibbard
Martin Crichton wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:15 pm
Carl Hibbard wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:56 am
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:33 pm
Might be an idea to redact the names of juniors when these sort of cases arise. When juniors are involved, the cases can be discussed without naming individuals.
I agree due to his age I have removed the name.
too late it is already up in Google cached memory and links directly to page 30 here on this website

that google thingy is fast and doesn't miss much!
I realise that however a couple of members have also posted url links direct to results etc so almost impossible now to do more.

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:35 pm
by Nick Grey
Mike Gunn - I think the SCCA rules/bye laws are a good starting point. Not least that we had a case which led to our current rules.

The football association rules too for players & clubs. Also rules regarding cricket & I think the length of bans for Australian cricketers is about right.

As for his school & others it is up to them what they do. The police have more important issues & priorities.

The publicity locally is not something we can avoid nor should we want too in our work with all players, juniors and parents.

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:36 pm
by David Sedgwick
Brian Valentine wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:28 pm
I wasn't suggesting Matt Carr would not be helpful in such situations.
I wasn't seeking to suggest that either, but on reflection I could have worded my post more carefully.

My apologies to Matthew and to you.

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:49 am
by Martin Crichton
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:04 pm
Martin Crichton wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:04 pm
Electronic means...I said Electronic device.....is there a difference? ...I have no idea but it has to be some kind of electronic device unless the kid is a telephatic? :)
The tournament was set up in a manner to facilitate casual cheating. All the games were broadcast, even the bottom section , so it would have been possible for an accomplice to sit in the hotel lobby monitoring the game on a laptop, tablet or smart phone. The coverage gives assessments and suggested lines of play. All the cheating player would have to do would be to pass through the hotel lobby and casually communicate with the accomplice.

Against that, if the player's internal club results were suspect, those wouldn't have been broadcast. Equally that method requires a certain amount of chess ability if the board is not left every move.
I had not considered that he might have had an accomplice...it is beyond comprehension to think that his family might be involved but who knows? That line of enquiry needs to be investigated. (and hopefully closed) These days many juniors are heavily supported by their family. I would venture to say if he had acomplices that were adults that the severity of the cheating has risen several notches and the police should definately be involved.