Cheating in chess

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:44 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:36 pm
Chris Rice wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:32 pm
The list of Q2 Presidential Board decisions came out today and yes for the most part it is as boring as it sounds.
There's also this

https://www.fide.com/images/stories/NEW ... _final.pdf

which contains
2. Calls upon all tournament organizers to avail themselves of all recourse that the legal system of their country provides against cheating and to submit relevant evidence to law enforcement agencies to facilitate the investigation and prosecution of matters
In the UK would the offence used in the case of the coughing Millionaire Major be available? Pecuniary advantage by deception was it not?
In general I am pleased that FIDE are looking at the practicals of how to deal with cheating, but on this specific point, does anybody really believe that tournament organisers are going to have the time, resources or inclination to pursue expelled players through the courts?
Last edited by JustinHorton on Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jacques Parry
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jacques Parry » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:01 am

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:40 am
So for a player who is being signalled to, you’d have a dishonesty offence for the player. Would you have aiding and abetting for the the signaller?
Yes, aiding and abetting. Or they could both be charged with conspiracy, as in the 'Millionaire' case.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:25 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:44 am
but on this specific point, does anybody really believe that tournament organisers are going to have the time, resources or inclination to pursue expelled players through the courts?
Probably not, we will have to see whether the French police have any interest in taking the Rausis case further.

It may be important for presentational purposes, given that in previous cases it had been suggested that breaking the Laws of over the board chess by consultation during the game wasn't illegal.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:54 am

FIDE have issued a statement. Unsurprising it presumably deliberately doesn't say anything.

https://www.fide.com/component/content/ ... usis-.html

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:31 am

It might be worthwhile for the ECF legal officer or advisor to put together an information page to be disseminated out to the constabularies in England. That way the the police officers will have a point of reference if any cheating incidences are reported in future. It could cover the type of scenarios that commonly occur and the criminal offences that best fit the circumstances. On the topic of the chess organisers, I would think they’d only need to be able to supply the contact details of themselves, the key witnesses and offenders details to police. It’s the authorities that will chase around and collect witness statements. In cases where mobile phones are discovered in toilets, I think they should be retained and handed to police the same day. The subscriber information would be key evidence in any case.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:59 pm

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:31 am
. In cases where mobile phones are discovered in toilets, I think they should be retained
How do you think you would do that legally?
Last edited by JustinHorton on Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:01 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:25 am
JustinHorton wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:44 am
but on this specific point, does anybody really believe that tournament organisers are going to have the time, resources or inclination to pursue expelled players through the courts?
Probably not, we will have to see whether the French police have any interest in taking the Rausis case further.
Let us suppose, and it's a big supposition, that they do. Where do you think Mr Rausis will be while this is going on?

My guess is "not in France".
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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John McKenna
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by John McKenna » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:10 pm

There's always the European Arrest Warrant to fall back on.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:29 am

An EAW can only be issued for the purposes of conducting a criminal prosecution (not merely an investigation), or enforcing a custodial sentence. It can only be issued for offences carrying a maximum penalty of 1 year or more in prison.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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John McKenna
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by John McKenna » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:52 am

Well, then the EAW is most probably not a fallback in these kinds of "cheating in chess" instances.

There seems to be no criminal case to bring in those instances so talk of involving the police, impounding phones, etc. (at FIDE's behest as per the following quote) seems way OTT.
2. Calls upon all tournament organizers to avail themselves of all recourse that the legal system of their country provides against cheating and to submit relevant evidence to law enforcement agencies to facilitate the investigation and prosecution of matters
The monetary 'gains' that a cheating chessplayer can make are usually too small to warrant the following -
... Depending on the particulars of the case, including the total value of the fraud or theft involved, you could be charged with a felony-level offense and face years behind bars, heavy monetary fines, and a permanent criminal record...
https://www.johntumeltycriminaldefense. ... l-charges/

Talk of "lifetime bans" also seems grossly disproportionate.

Chess events could simply refuse entry to known proven cheats and leave it to the cheats to go to law if they want to try to force entry, or to try to claim ill-gotten gains after the fact.

Also, if possible and deemed necessary, a small secure room could be set aside in which suspected cheats could be made to play their games until such time as they are caught at it, and ejected, or out of the running for cash prizes due to being unable to win game after game by cheating.

There's no need for a legal sledgehammer to crack a dodgy nut.

My suggested use of the EAW was made tongue in cheek, by the way.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:11 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:59 pm
Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:31 am
. In cases where mobile phones are discovered in toilets, I think they should be retained
How do you think you would do that legally?
Justin is right. Matt Bridgeman also said in his original post that any seized phones should be: "handed to police the same day. The subscriber information would be key evidence in any case."

As well as the illegality of seizing evidence (are there circumstances where you are legally allowed to do this, similar to a citizen's arrest?), there is the issue of preserving evidence and avoiding accusations of evidence tampering. If the phone is unlocked and you are in possession of it when you give it to the police, there is no way to prove that you have not tampered with it. Even if it is locked, you might have done that yourself. The other thing, if this sort of thing does become more common, is to guard against people being framed, with incriminating evidence planted and so on. Unlikely, but this is why guidance on what should and shouldn't be done is needed.

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:05 pm

I don’t think there is any real case law for these type of cheating cases. A practical solution is just to treat it as found property. The organiser takes the phone from where it is found, keeps possession of it, and ideally takes the phone with the relevant contact details to the local police station at the end of the event. Probably after finding it they could ring the non emergency police number and have a police log created, and explain what they will be doing. In some cases officers may be available to attend immediately and deal with it at the scene, and in some cases they won’t be, depending where events are geographically.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:12 pm

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:05 pm
A practical solution is just to treat it as found property.
How is that going to work, if the person demands you give their phone back?
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"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Matt Bridgeman
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:17 pm

It does seem an unusual idea that a player would be angrily demanding a phone back that was found concealed in a toilet. If there was a breach of the peace then the police would definitely immediately attend. My advice would be not to do any investigative work beyond what people have already seen prior to the discovery of the phone. You may have suspicions about whose phone it is, but leave the investigation to the police.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:26 pm

You may find the police investigating you, on a charge of theft.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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