Cheating in chess

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Reg Clucas
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Reg Clucas » Tue May 05, 2015 3:34 pm

A much more blatant example of cheating here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32542306 - scroll down to the picture captioned "Russian journalists play chess..." and take a look at the woman in the blue coat!

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Tue May 05, 2015 3:49 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:My tame legal adviser reckons that the Fraud Act would cover cheating in UK.
What was their reasoning?
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Ian Thompson
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Ian Thompson » Tue May 05, 2015 10:08 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Chris Rice wrote:I would agree with Justin that legal action is difficult but would equally agree with Roger that laws are being broken.
What about Lance Armstrong and Ben Johnson cases? Neither ended in criminal action did they? Aren’t they closer analogies to computer assisted cheating at chess than spot fixing?
The case that springs to my mind is the card game player who recently sued a casino for his winnings that they had refused to play out. He'd taken advantage of a flaw on the backs of the cards to improve his chances of winning. The casino said he'd cheated by doing this. He said that the casino had been careless in using faulty packs of cards and it was legitimate to take advantage of this. The judge agreed with the casino, so the player didn't get his 7.7 million pounds. (Daily Mail report)

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Tue May 05, 2015 11:46 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Chris Rice wrote:I would agree with Justin that legal action is difficult but would equally agree with Roger that laws are being broken.
What about Lance Armstrong and Ben Johnson cases? Neither ended in criminal action did they? Aren’t they closer analogies to computer assisted cheating at chess than spot fixing?
The case that springs to my mind is the card game player who recently sued a casino for his winnings that they had refused to play out. He'd taken advantage of a flaw on the backs of the cards to improve his chances of winning. The casino said he'd cheated by doing this. He said that the casino had been careless in using faulty packs of cards and it was legitimate to take advantage of this. The judge agreed with the casino, so the player didn't get his 7.7 million pounds. (Daily Mail report)

Yes I remember that. This guy wasn’t subject to criminal action either. He was the one launching a civil suit.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed May 06, 2015 12:09 am

Jonathan Bryant wrote: He was the one launching a civil suit.
The mathematics of card game probability can change if the pack of cards isn't infinite. It shouldn't be regarded as cheating if a player can memorise the cards previously played, any more so than a player recalling opening or indeed ending positions or methods in chess whether memorised or not with computer assistance.

That said, demanding or enticing a Casino to use a set of cards with a non-random flaw is exploiting the system at the very least and potentially fraud. Similarly a device to help counting cards, although at the time I doubt casinos had the long established over the board chess law about taking advice.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed May 06, 2015 8:07 am

"My tame legal adviser reckons that the Fraud Act would cover cheating in UK.


What was their reasoning?"

Said person (who has dealt with serious fraud) didn't go into detail - I was invited to read the "Fraud Act" of 2006. I assume if you attempt to gain money dishonestly, that an offence may have been committed. If you use a computer to win a £10 grading prize, the courts would probably not be that excited... I assume the courts would not be interested at all if people cheat in league games where there is not a pecuniary advantage.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Wed May 06, 2015 12:33 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:"My tame legal adviser reckons that the Fraud Act would cover cheating in UK.


What was their reasoning?"

Said person (who has dealt with serious fraud) didn't go into detail - I was invited to read the "Fraud Act" of 2006.
And here it is. (Or pdf)
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu May 07, 2015 1:22 am

Feller has returned his prize and medal and is now cleared to play in FIDE rated events.

http://www.fide.com/component/content/a ... eller.html

Chris Rice
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Chris Rice » Thu May 07, 2015 7:18 am

Well if I didn't know better I would swear that the President of the ECU Zurab Azmaiparashvili has been reading this thread. He has now "clarified" his comments that I posted earlier on Nigalidze, the Georgian caught cheating in Dubai and it makes for very interesting reading (from Russian Chess News):

Zurab Azmaiparashvili: "I Am Not Defending Cheats - I Only Want to Follow the Rules and Respect Human Rights"

On his Facebook page, the ECU President, Zurab Azmaiparashvili, has published a text, in which he further expounds his view on the Nigalidze affair.

"Today, following the publication of selected parts of my interview with the Georgian newspaper on the website chess-news.ru, I was subject to accusations of allegedly defending Gaioz Nigalidze, what is far from truth. First, I have always considered him guilty of misconduct and requested for punishment! Second, the original interview was relatively long and subject to edition, possibly introducing a number of misconceptions and altering the ultimate messages to be delivered. Therefore, I would like to apologize for any misunderstanding.

However, we need to carefully consider the proposed penalties as they may have long-term and unforeseen consequences. I believe it is helpful to bear in mind the global practice of court of law. It is almost unheard to charge the accused with the maximum sentence unless the latter is considered a malicious recidivist. What is more, the court always takes into account the circumstances surrounding the case as well as the degree of cooperation with investigations.

Hence, I suggested for a total disqualification of 1-2 years rather than the maximum penalty of up to 3 years, acknowledging the consequences on future career goals and professional life (actually, I compared the case with a renown French movie ‘two men in town’ starring Alain Delon and Jean Gabin).

Hereby I would like to point out that this represents my opinion, an opinion of a man with vast experience and past mistakes who tends to give everyone a second chance for the better change. This is in striking contrast with the opinion of the “bloodthirsty” who request for lifelong disqualification. For clarification, FIDE Ethics Committee states that any first episode of misconduct be subject to a maximum of 3 years of penalty, and demanding a lifelong ban goes beyond and disobeys with existing regulations. One may disagree with the appropriateness of current regulations and this may be a valid subject for a separate debate, however, one should refrain from using the argument for political reasons.

I would also like to touch on the unprecedented case of Sebastian Feller and the cheating scheme unveiled by the French Chess Federation. Surprisingly, nobody talks about the heroic action of the Federation acting against its own player. Here follows a rhetoric question – are there many chess federations that would have acted the same way as did the French?

Additionally, I would like to clarify the meaning of ‘minor’ doping that I used in my original interview. Generally doping scandals in sports comprise the complicated schemes involving a variety of institutions and national federations, rather than individual based actions. Thanks god, chess has not been subject to such schemes and there is still time to work in the right direction. Also, the ultimate goals of doping are rather different and target higher and more prestigious achievements.

In conclusion, do not get me wrong - I am neither defending cheaters nor against their punishment, However, I call for abidance by the regulations and observance of human rights!"

http://chess-news.ru/en/node/18940

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Thu May 07, 2015 8:44 am

"Here follows a rhetoric question – are there many chess federations that would have acted the same way as did the French?"

No

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by LawrenceCooper » Thu May 07, 2015 10:51 am

"Surprisingly, nobody talks about the heroic action of the Federation acting against its own player."

Nobody within the circles he moves in, perhaps, but myself and many others certainly think very highly of the French Federation for raising and dealing with the issue which others may have tried to cover up.

Chris Rice
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Chris Rice » Fri May 08, 2015 9:21 am

The FIDE anti-cheating committee are investigating a Bulgarian player following a complaint but the President of the Bulgarian Chess Federation, a certain Mr Danailov, has no intention of co-operating on the grounds that FIDE are not competent or professional enough. Looks like we're in for another showdown....

http://www.fide.com/images/stories/NEWS ... ration.pdf

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 08, 2015 10:31 am

Chris Rice wrote:The FIDE anti-cheating committee are investigating a Bulgarian player
We already knew about the allegations, even if it seems we didn't believe them.

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 65#p144676

The Google archive of this forum found that discussion just from the name, but remember Google will bias searches towards chess by known chess players.

Chris Rice
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Chris Rice » Fri May 08, 2015 11:11 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Chris Rice wrote:The FIDE anti-cheating committee are investigating a Bulgarian player
We already knew about the allegations, even if it seems we didn't believe them.

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 65#p144676

The Google archive of this forum found that discussion just from the name, but remember Google will bias searches towards chess by known chess players.
I did wonder about posting it on the other thread initially but this one looked more current. I checked back though and as Tetimov doesn't appear to have played any rated games since those allegations from his FIDE profile https://ratings.fide.com/hist.phtml?event=2908719 were voiced then I'm guessing they must be the ones referred to so I think you're right to include the link.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri May 08, 2015 12:11 pm

""Surprisingly, nobody talks about the heroic action of the Federation acting against its own player."

Nobody within the circles he moves in, perhaps, but myself and many others certainly think very highly of the French Federation for raising and dealing with the issue which others may have tried to cover up."

I agree with Lawrence.

Interesting that Azmai thinks it is "heroic" to act honestly!

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