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Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:11 pm
by Nick Grey
In a bag on the table when there is room.

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:35 pm
by NickFaulks
Nick, you and I play in the Surrey and Thames Valley Leagues. Have you ever seen a phone in a bag on the table?

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:41 pm
by Roger de Coverly
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:54 pm
Just so that I'm clear in my mind as to what happens elsewhere, what's the formula for someone arriving at a league match by public transport? What exactly is he or she expected to do with his/her phone?
As a Match Captain, I would be perfectly happy that the phone was switched off and remained off for the entire game. It wouldn't have to be a problem if it was concealed in a jacket or bag. We're happy enough to play with no arbiter present, so players are assumed to know and follow the rules about not consulting external sources.

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:01 pm
by NickFaulks
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:41 pm
As a Match Captain, I would be perfectly happy that the phone was switched off and remained off for the entire game. It wouldn't have to be a problem if it was concealed in a jacket or bag.
Would you still be happy if they left the room wearing the jacket or carrying the bag?

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:14 pm
by Roger de Coverly
NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:01 pm
Would you still be happy if they left the room wearing the jacket or carrying the bag?
I don't really see why not. Female players have commented that whilst they could put a switched off phone in a handbag, they wouldn't want to be deprived of the handbag. (That was in a discussion about what the local rule for phones should be)

It would be possible to insist that phones were placed in the boxes that sets or clocks come in, but until proved otherwise, that would be regarded as overkill.

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:29 pm
by NickFaulks
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:14 pm
NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:01 pm
Would you still be happy if they left the room wearing the jacket or carrying the bag?
I don't really see why not.
In that case, the reality is that you don't actually want any anti-cheating measures at all, and regard the whole thing as just an annoying box-ticking exercise. That is probably still a popular view in English clubs.

I have never understood the obsession with phones being turned off. I presume that their owners know how to turn them back on.

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:31 pm
by Roger Lancaster
Nick Grey wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:11 pm
In a bag on the table when there is room.
I've been in club matches where there's plenty of room but I've yet to see a bag. But, given such a bag, who exactly accepts liability if a phone disappears from the [communal] bag?

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:10 pm
by Tim Spanton
Stick it in your backpack, or bring your own plastic bag/bag-for-life

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:20 pm
by Nick Grey
The player that put it there,. It is better if not in same pocket as wallet when buying drinks. It is a pain that they can multi task and not cheat

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:38 pm
by Roger de Coverly
NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:29 pm
I have never understood the obsession with phones being turned off.
It's to stop it making a noise.

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:41 pm
by John Upham
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:38 pm
NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:29 pm
I have never understood the obsession with phones being turned off.
It's to stop it making a noise.

I believe players have assumed that by turning their mobile telephone off it would not be capable of making of noise.

Some will make a noise anyway when the battery is low or some other event.

Battery removal is best.

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:02 pm
by NickFaulks
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:38 pm
NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:29 pm
I have never understood the obsession with phones being turned off.
It's to stop it making a noise.
Ah, so we're not talking about cheating any more.

Would you then be happy for the phone to be on but muted, provided that the muting was guaranteed to be effective?

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:11 pm
by Richard Bates
John Upham wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:41 pm
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:38 pm
NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:29 pm
I have never understood the obsession with phones being turned off.
It's to stop it making a noise.

I believe players have assumed that by turning their mobile telephone off it would not be capable of making of noise.

Some will make a noise anyway when the battery is low or some other event.

Battery removal is best.
Lol, it's like stumbling across a discussion from several years ago! You can't just 'remove batteries' from phones these days ;)

I would guess that most people simply aren't that concerned about the possibility of cheating in evening league chess because the likelihood of it happening to any significant extent is simply very low. Even more so doing it successfully without people getting very suspicious pretty quickly. And given that, putting in place serious anti cheating measures simply isn't worth it. And generally the rules are very relaxed, with only warnings issued if phones go off.

Of course it would be a concern if people were using evening leagues as some sort of "testing ground" to what they could get away with in other competitive play - although i'm not sure they'd learn much, simply BECAUSE the rules and atmosphere is more relaxed.

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:32 pm
by Nick Grey
Nothing about cheating but these are the SCCA Bye-Laws


[2.8 Mobile telephones and other electronic devices
2.8.1 Subject to paragraph 2.8.3 below, mobile phones and other electronic devices shall not be used during play.
2.8.2 Mobile phones and other electronic devices are permitted in the playing venue, provided they are
• stored either in full view on or near the playing table, or in a bag under or near the playing table; and
• switched off, unless prior permission has been obtained in accordance with paragraph 2.8.3 below for them to be on, in which event they must be in silent mode.
Players should be reminded of this requirement before commencement of play
• in a Club Competition, by the match captains; or
• in other competitions, by the Controller or his nominated deputy at the playing venue.
2.8.3 Notwithstanding paragraphs 2.8.1 and 2.8.2 above, a mobile phone may be used or left on if prior permission has been given in accordance with paragraph 2.8.6 below.
2.8.4 Subject to paragraph 2.8.5 below, a player shall not leave the playing venue during play.
2.8.5 Notwithstanding paragraph 2.8.4 above, a player may leave the playing venue if prior permission has been given in accordance with paragraph 2.8.6 below.
2.8.6 Permission under paragraphs 2.8.3 or 2.8.5 above may be given:
• in a Club Competition, by the opposing match captain; or
• in other competitions, by the Controller or his nominated deputy at the playing venue;
in which case the person giving permission shall notify both players concerned.
2.8.7 The penalty for violations of paragraphs 2.8.1, 2.8.2 or 2.8.4 not covered by the concessions in 2.8.3 or 2.8.5 shall be the loss of the game by the offending player.
2.8.8 If a player's phone or electronic device makes any sound during his game, then on the first occurrence he shall receive a warning, and for a second offence by the same player in the same game, he shall lose the game.
2.8.9 Where an offending player loses in accordance with the paragraphs 2.8.7 or 2.8.8 above, his opponent shall win.
2.8.10 Should a player use an electronic device as a playing aid during play, the matter shall be reported to the Controller, who shall refer the matter to the Board.]1
Note The term “other electronic devices” means devices used or which can be used as a chess playing aid and not those used for medical purposes.
1 Amended on 30 June 2019 at the AGM.

Re: Cheating in chess

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:10 pm
by Kevin Thurlow
"2.8.10 Should a player use an electronic device as a playing aid during play, the matter shall be reported to the Controller, who shall refer the matter to the Board.]1
Note The term “other electronic devices” means devices used or which can be used as a chess playing aid and not those used for medical purposes."

This refers to cheating surely?