Cheating in chess

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
MartinCarpenter
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by MartinCarpenter » Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:14 am

Mick Norris wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:05 pm
Chesstech News Cheaters caught in two online competitions this week
FIDE is looking into eye-tracking as an indicator of forbidden assistance
?! Even over the board, loads of players don't spend very long looking at the board while thinking.

Its essentially entirely impossible to check for intelligent cheating in which the cheater has put a bit of effort when the cheater totally controls their computer + environment in which they're playing.

Nothing above is going to help one bit except vs quite casual/stupid cheaters.
(Which include people using a computer heavily enough to be caught by the move overlaps!).

Mike Gunn
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Mike Gunn » Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:28 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:55 pm
I seldom make comments about fellow arbiters on this Forum and on this occasion I can't. The Chief Arbiter is IA Nuno Felipe Andrade. I have to confess that I had not previously heard of him.
This looks like an anagram of April Fool in some vaguely recognisable language.

NickFaulks
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:46 am

Mick Norris wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:05 pm
Chesstech News Cheaters caught in two online competitions this week
The President of the regional federation of Lower Saxony in Germany is reported as saying

"But: I assume that almost all chess players do not want to cheat (statistically, 99.9% do not cheat)"

Presumably what he means by that is that 99.9% of players do not get caught cheating. Even that claim is far from borne out in the tournaments being discussed.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

Matthew Turner
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Matthew Turner » Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:43 am

I think there is a problem here about what we mean by cheating. Implicitly, it is assumed that we all mean the same thing, but that isn't necessarily the case. We do an example at school about what is meant by plagiarism and get wildly different answers (the same is true among the academic community too!) so try this out

Taking a mobile phone to a tournament with £1000 first prize and consulting stockfish every move
Taking a mobile phone to a tournament with no prize money and consulting stockfish every move
Checking you notes during a game to remind yourself of the analysis you had done at home
Looking back in your scorebook to remind yourself of what you had played before
Playing in an online tournament and using an engine so that you can win the first prize
Playing in a friendly tournament online and using a computer to gain rating points to impress your friends
Playing some rated matches online and using a database to check opening lines to help learn theory
Playing some unrated games online and using stockfish to find out how good the program is
Declaring you have computer assistance and playing games online using your engine just for fun.

I strongly suspect that many older players will find all of these unacceptable and many younger players will not. I think that is a challenge because once you begin to accept that some forms of 'assistance' are OK then it becomes easier to move up the list.

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Stewart Reuben » Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:13 pm

Sadly gone are the days when the main form of cheating was collusion with your opponent to ensure that one of you won.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:20 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:43 am

Playing some unrated games online and using stockfish to find out how good the program is
Declaring you have computer assistance and playing games online using your engine just for fun.

I strongly suspect that many older players will find all of these unacceptable and many younger players will not.
All but the last two and then only if you have notified your opponent so that they can decline the invitation to play. Consultation games have a long history as an exhibition variant.

Not consulting external sources during play is a "given" for OTB chess played under serious conditions. No doubt the historians can established when it first became explicit. It's pretty much intrinsic to most if not all traditional board and card games that you don't have someone whispering suggestions in your ear or have something where you can look up ideas,

Ian Thompson
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Ian Thompson » Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:34 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:43 am
I think there is a problem here about what we mean by cheating. Implicitly, it is assumed that we all mean the same thing, but that isn't necessarily the case.
My definition of cheating - deliberately and knowingly doing something that's prohibited by the rules.

NickFaulks
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:47 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:13 pm
Sadly gone are the days when the main form of cheating was collusion with your opponent to ensure that one of you won.
I expect that's still a pretty big one.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

E Michael White
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by E Michael White » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:05 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:34 pm

My definition of cheating - deliberately and knowingly doing something that's prohibited by the rules.
Arbiters do that often !

On another point; should arbiters be scanned, when entering the playing areas, for electronics capable of sending or receiving information ?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:18 pm

E Michael White wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:05 pm
On another point; should arbiters be scanned, when entering the playing areas, for electronics capable of sending or receiving information ?
That would be somewhat pointless as their laptops would have internet connectivity. The connectivity is necessary anyway if they are using the chess-results linked software for making and publishing the pairings and results.

E Michael White
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by E Michael White » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:35 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:18 pm

That would be somewhat pointless
Oh no it wouldn't. Arbiters could be acting as a relay to send information from electronic boards, or miscellaneous WIFI signals, to an accomplice in the car park (on your model) who does the necessary with the Engine to relay it back to a plastic or metalloid receptor concealed about a player.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:00 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:43 am
.We do an example at school about what is meant by plagiarism and get wildly different answers (the same is true among the academic community too!)
You may find that within the academic commmunity plagiarism is subject to a written definition, since students have to be taught what it is, and can find themselves in a disciplinary process for infringing it.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:46 pm

E Michael White wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:35 pm
Arbiters could be acting as a relay to send information from electronic boards, or miscellaneous WIFI signals
The point is that arbiters have active electronic devices with them as a matter of course, so what is additional testing supposed to achieve?

Some arbiters will not, as a matter of policy, follow games live with an active engine for fear of disclosing something to the players.

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Stewart Reuben » Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:01 pm

If the electronic boards are live, the moves are being transmitted out of the venue anyway. It was different when, in Britain, we used to arrange a time lag of 5-10 minutes to help overcome this problem. But then Makro thought it was ridiculous and the delay was discontinued.

Brian Towers
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Brian Towers » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:07 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:20 pm
It's pretty much intrinsic to most if not all traditional board and card games that you don't have someone whispering suggestions in your ear
You've clearly never played in front of a drunken crowd on one of the outdoor sets at Muenchner Freiheit. The suggestions aren't so much whispered in your ear as bellowed at you. Fortunately if you decline to make the outrageous sacrifices they demand they only hurl insults rather than beer bottles. Could be the closest a chess player gets to feeling like a premier league footballer playing a home game 1-0 down in a relegation derby.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

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