Cheating in chess

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Adam Raoof » Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:16 pm

Robin Nandi wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:59 pm
Mick Norris wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:24 pm
I get why, say, the 4NCL doesn't want to publish the names
So do I in one sense - they don't want to deal with the agro of claims and counterclaims. However, given the high rate of cheating in the online format, I believe publishing a list of names is necessary to give those who played fairly confidence that cheaters will be caught and to deter would be cheaters from doing so.

I think it is possible for organisers to publish such a list if they frame it carefully i.e. indicates likelihood of cheating above a certain threshold, like a "pregnancy test" rather than "speed camera". And have a panel for reviewing appeals by players.

I can understand why many players will not play in organised online tournaments if something like this is not in place. There are plenty of hourly tournaments on lichess (e.g. Daily Rapid Arena) with decent players participating. What is the advantage in playing in an organised tournament with no prize money?

One suggestion on the prevention rather than detection front: it might help to require a video call between the players. This means that the players can see each others faces during the game and may notice e.g. if the opponent checks his phone. More importantly, it is much harder to lie to someone while looking at their face.
Tornelo plus Zoom plus Ken Regan plus pgnspy is where I am at right now!

Actually, I never use the ch... word if I can avoid it. I have seen too many false accusations, and it is ugly. I don't think naming people is appropriate because you can say they are guilty of breaking some rules, but technically they are innocent until proven guilty.

Making accusations about people on a Forum is different to withholding prizes, or deleting results, refusing entries or closing accounts. You are definitely on dodgy ground as a publisher and that means Carl.
Adam Raoof IA, IO
The Chess Circuit - https://chesscircuit.substack.com/
Tornelo - https://tornelo.com/chess/orgs/chess-england
Simon Williams "The Ginger GM" - https://gingergm.com/ref/106.html
Don’t stop playing chess!

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger Lancaster » Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:27 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:43 pm

Finger pointing does indeed require care. See FIDE Anti-Cheating Guideline 7

7 . How to deal with false accusations: - In case of a false accusation by a player, the Arbiter shall penalize him/her according to Article 12 .2 of the Laws of Chess . For further procedures, see Section 3, Part A .

If the player claims the accusation was false, and represents to FIDE accordingly, it seems possible that those making the accusation could - if they haven't exercised the necessary degree of care - find themselves in a situation they didn't expect to be in. Others may have greater insight and offer reassurance on this point?
Some posters don't seem to have latched on to this. Slow thinkers may need to refer to https://www.chess.com/news/view/gm-solo ... ms-protest which explains how GM Evgenie Solozhenkin came to be suspended for 18 months by FIDE for making "unsubstantiated allegations of cheating" against another player. Additionally, and probably of less relevance here, the mother of the offended child sued for defamation and won 100 thousand roubles [roughly £1200] compensation in the local Court.

FIDE called in Ken Regan for an independent opinion, in which he reportedly said: " … the complainers have not attempted to give any analysis that could support their allegations. Instead my analysis, using a neutral and automatic scientific procedure, mostly argues against them … ". So, anyone wanting to accuse 76-year-olds or others of cheating needs to be sure they have convincing analysis in case they too are referred to FIDE.

The fact that someone may have been flagged by Lichess isn't, in my view, likely to be useful as evidence since Lichess don't offer reasons. In fact,
Lichess themselves were the subject of a defamation complaint to FIDE a month ago, since which time and perhaps not by coincidence they have changed their wording [which previously referred to computer engine assistance] to refer instead to a violation of their terms of service.

Richard Bates
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Richard Bates » Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:30 pm

I will freely admit I haven’t followed the discussion in its entirety, and will potentially be pulled up on stating simple inaccuracies about my understanding of the effectiveness of some of the “cheat detection” processes. But I have picked up snippets (perhaps wrongly misinterpreted) that at least some of the statistical cheat detection methods are not based on absolute strength of performance (eg. high correlation with computer generated analysis) but relative levels of performance against expectation. And I just fundamentally reject that approach as a decisive indicator, in relation to juniors (especially, as hinted above) where significant levels or improvement are highly likely, especially in the present circumstances.

But then I also see the current period of “serious” online competition as pretty much a stop gap to keep people occupied until an opportunity to return to normality occurs. I don’t see a future to online chess outside of the elite level (with safeguards) or perhaps at an amateur level, where people are prepared to take compliance on trust, and would strongly argue against trying to link what may or may not be happening with potential for cheating in an OTB future. If some people are going to play outside of the spirit of the game in this period then so be it, I’m not going to lose too much sleep over it. Clearly there is a problem where money is involved - and I am wondering how the U.K. chess challenge are going to deal with that (assuming there are the monetary prizes at stake - I’m guessing some level of independent supervision in socially distanced environments). If and when OTB returns all the standard safeguards will be back in place, and those that want to cheat will face the same difficulties of opportunity and small realistic chance of prolonged success without arousing suspicion and or detection as they ever had. And at least then those that might be falsely accused will have innocence until clearly proven guilty on their sude.

Alan Walton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Alan Walton » Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:36 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:27 pm
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:43 pm

Finger pointing does indeed require care. See FIDE Anti-Cheating Guideline 7

7 . How to deal with false accusations: - In case of a false accusation by a player, the Arbiter shall penalize him/her according to Article 12 .2 of the Laws of Chess . For further procedures, see Section 3, Part A .

If the player claims the accusation was false, and represents to FIDE accordingly, it seems possible that those making the accusation could - if they haven't exercised the necessary degree of care - find themselves in a situation they didn't expect to be in. Others may have greater insight and offer reassurance on this point?
Some posters don't seem to have latched on to this.
I am trying to think of a deterrent to stop people cheating; for example you enter a tournament (like the 4NCL one), then part of the conditions of entry can easily be if you have been suspected of cheating through x method (this is the server own or another) you name will be openly logged on the "blacklist", you can have some independent appeal process for removal from the list (£10 charge which is returned if successful)

If you don't like these conditions then don't enter, it as simple as that

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:45 pm

Alan Walton wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:36 pm
then part of the conditions of entry can easily be if you have been suspected of cheating through x method (this is the server own or another) you name will be openly logged on the "blacklist"
A modification of that would be that the listed player is required to play under conditions of video and audio surveillance.

Alan Walton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Alan Walton » Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:49 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:45 pm
Alan Walton wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:36 pm
then part of the conditions of entry can easily be if you have been suspected of cheating through x method (this is the server own or another) you name will be openly logged on the "blacklist"
A modification of that would be that the listed player is required to play under conditions of video and audio surveillance.
Agree that could work

This thread isn't coming up with solutions, just circling around we don't trust the methodology of detecting cheating; personally you just have to accept it is the best we have got and get on with it (or come up with something new)

Nick Burrows
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Nick Burrows » Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:00 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:27 pm
So, anyone wanting to accuse 76-year-olds or others of cheating needs to be sure they have convincing analysis in case they too are referred to FIDE.

The fact that someone may have been flagged by Lichess isn't, in my view, likely to be useful as evidence since Lichess don't offer reasons. In fact,
Lichess themselves were the subject of a defamation complaint to FIDE a month ago, since which time and perhaps not by coincidence they have changed their wording [which previously referred to computer engine assistance] to refer instead to a violation of their terms of service.
Lichess informed me that "I lost to a cheater"

Robin Nandi
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Robin Nandi » Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:08 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:16 pm
Making accusations about people on a Forum is different to withholding prizes, or deleting results, refusing entries or closing accounts. You are definitely on dodgy ground as a publisher and that means Carl.
On your point about making accusations on a forum, it is a matter for debate among the Twitter, Facebook & media generally how much responsibility lies with the poster and how much with the forum. However, I can see why Carl would want to avoid accusations on here.

On the point about withholding prizes, let's say in a hypothetical online tournament the player who finished in first place his grade has been 1800-1900 for the past 20 years but performed at 2400 and was flagged by engine use detection software (avoiding the c word).

EITHER that player is a deserved winner and should receive the prize money - there is no direct proof of engine use so they are innocent until proven guilty, right?

OR their score on the engine use detection software is too high to justify their place in the tournament (again avoiding the c word) and hence prize money should be withheld.

Which one of these options is determined by the tournament organisers. Why then not publish? I'm not sure what the rationale is for withholding prize money and not publishing.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:12 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:00 pm
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:27 pm
So, anyone wanting to accuse 76-year-olds or others of cheating needs to be sure they have convincing analysis in case they too are referred to FIDE.

The fact that someone may have been flagged by Lichess isn't, in my view, likely to be useful as evidence since Lichess don't offer reasons. In fact,
Lichess themselves were the subject of a defamation complaint to FIDE a month ago, since which time and perhaps not by coincidence they have changed their wording [which previously referred to computer engine assistance] to refer instead to a violation of their terms of service.
Lichess informed me that "I lost to a cheater"
JustinHorton wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:52 am
Just to note it is possible to report suspected cheaters on Lichess: I've done it twice (with only a fifty per cent success rate, amusingly).
I'm now up to a hundred per cent, as they've either reviewed a previous decision or took a lot of time to come to it, but either way they've now banned the second of the two players I reported, and on their account it says "This account violated the Lichess Terms of Service".
Robin Nandi wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:08 pm
Adam Raoof wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:16 pm
Making accusations about people on a Forum is different to withholding prizes, or deleting results, refusing entries or closing accounts. You are definitely on dodgy ground as a publisher and that means Carl.
On your point about making accusations on a forum, it is a matter for debate among the Twitter, Facebook & media generally how much responsibility lies with the poster and how much with the forum.
It can be a matter of debate among whoever feels like expressing an opinion, but the important thing here is that it's a matter of law.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Adam Raoof » Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:14 pm

Robin Nandi wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:08 pm
Adam Raoof wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:16 pm
Making accusations about people on a Forum is different to withholding prizes, or deleting results, refusing entries or closing accounts. You are definitely on dodgy ground as a publisher and that means Carl.
On your point about making accusations on a forum, it is a matter for debate among the Twitter, Facebook & media generally how much responsibility lies with the poster and how much with the forum. However, I can see why Carl would want to avoid accusations on here.

On the point about withholding prizes, let's say in a hypothetical online tournament the player who finished in first place his grade has been 1800-1900 for the past 20 years but performed at 2400 and was flagged by engine use detection software (avoiding the c word).

EITHER that player is a deserved winner and should receive the prize money - there is no direct proof of engine use so they are innocent until proven guilty, right?

OR their score on the engine use detection software is too high to justify their place in the tournament (again avoiding the c word) and hence prize money should be withheld.

Which one of these options is determined by the tournament organisers. Why then not publish? I'm not sure what the rationale is for withholding prize money and not publishing.
It is the difference between resolving things informally, or formally.
Adam Raoof IA, IO
The Chess Circuit - https://chesscircuit.substack.com/
Tornelo - https://tornelo.com/chess/orgs/chess-england
Simon Williams "The Ginger GM" - https://gingergm.com/ref/106.html
Don’t stop playing chess!

Robin Nandi
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Robin Nandi » Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:32 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:12 pm
Robin Nandi wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:08 pm
Adam Raoof wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:16 pm
Making accusations about people on a Forum is different to withholding prizes, or deleting results, refusing entries or closing accounts. You are definitely on dodgy ground as a publisher and that means Carl.
On your point about making accusations on a forum, it is a matter for debate among the Twitter, Facebook & media generally how much responsibility lies with the poster and how much with the forum.
It can be a matter of debate among whoever feels like expressing an opinion, but the important thing here is that it's a matter of law.
That's simply not true. If you make an accusation on Facebook that someone is a paedophile, Facebook do not have legal responsibility over that claim.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:03 pm

Uh huh. Are you under the impression that the sole responsibility for defamation on the internet lies with the poster? I think that may be optimistic.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Robin Nandi
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Robin Nandi » Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:07 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:03 pm
Uh huh. Are you under the impression that the sole responsibility for defamation on the internet lies with the poster?
No. I think it depends on the forum and whether they are deemed to be a "publisher". What is your impression?

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Adam Raoof » Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:09 pm

Robin Nandi wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:07 pm
JustinHorton wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:03 pm
Uh huh. Are you under the impression that the sole responsibility for defamation on the internet lies with the poster?
No. I think it depends on the forum and whether they are deemed to be a "publisher". What is your impression?
The legal definition includes forums like this one, but FB has wriggled for many years. They have lost the argument, which is why they are doing more to police what appears on their platform!
Adam Raoof IA, IO
The Chess Circuit - https://chesscircuit.substack.com/
Tornelo - https://tornelo.com/chess/orgs/chess-england
Simon Williams "The Ginger GM" - https://gingergm.com/ref/106.html
Don’t stop playing chess!

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:10 pm

Robin Nandi wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:07 pm

No. I think it depends on the forum and whether they are deemed to be a "publisher". What is your impression?
My impression is that your last two postings don't seem to be entirely consistent
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

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