The Death of League Chess?

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IanCalvert
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Re: The Death of League Chess?

Post by IanCalvert » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:00 pm

Captain Roger

Thanks very much, I will work on some cunning plans..... faster, faster

David Pardoe
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Re: The Death of League Chess?

Post by David Pardoe » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:06 pm

The title of this thread is somewhat curious...?
Is not the 4NCL a league....and surely not dead.
Maybe in need of a lick of paint, or a few tweeks and upgrades/enhancements..
So too, the more basic traditional formats, which provide hours of `entertainment and challenge` for our players.
Yes, I`m sure there is room to give our league offerings a makeover, and to reinvigorate them with fresh input from a new generation of officials and volunteers, at all levels..
One change I`d make is to encourage an accelerated playing session, with say 35 moves in the first 75mins, followed by say 20 moves in next 15 mins. This would give a game session of 55 moves, which could be followed by either adjournment or adjudication..
My preference would be adjournment after 55 moves, which gives both players plenty of chance to demonstrate they can/are winning, or not..
In practice, this should result in over 97% of games finishing on the night, with most being agreed without resumption..
I`d guess that only a handful of games per season per league might go to more than one playing session, and it would remove the current madness of the open -ended blitz lottery style finishes, where its quite possible for players who may be theoretically winning, to actually lose on time., even with so called 10 sec increments, which are plain daft anyway, and amount to no more than another form of lottery.
That's no way to conclude a good evenings chess... and many think actually spoils a good evenings chess in many cases.
Very exciting and heart stopping it might be... its just turning chess into a lottery..
For those players with good Openning knowledge, a great advantage can be had by reeling off say the first dozen or so moves in 5 mins... but again, this is not a practice that I`d particularly encourage, nor does it make for good chess.

However, on the other side.. chess numbers have lessened over the years since the great Fischer BOOM.
Our Officianadoes and players need to remain proactive and supportive in the cause of encouraging and promoting chess take-up, and in offering their services as volunteers to keep the wheels turning...
Can our clubs and leagues also do more to promote chess, and get publicity in local Press, with occasional league updates and reports, commentary/analysis.. etc.. to keep their local communities in touch with what is going on...and welcoming messages to encourage newbies to visit their local clubs.
Burying ourselves in the web, and hoping joe-public might click the right buttons to find us is not enough.. Many people don't bother trolling through websites looking at such stuff...but I accept that many do, and that does offer some opportunities to reach out to our public..
Make those websites interesting and keep them updated.... a good enthusiastic webmaster is a definite asset to any club or league/county body...
On the matter of publicity.. notices in local shop/Post Office or libraries can help...
I`d also say that the ECF Diary was another option that could be useful.. I found it a good publication... and also a potential tool for advertising and promotion.
It also makes a good Christmas gift/stocking filler...
Having a physical presence has to be good for any group, but again, its important to promote such things..
And sometimes cutting costs slightly by scrapping such things can be counter productive.
I`m not sure the 16 month format was necessary, but I can see why it happened.
I`d also urge clubs to look for good playing venues, and maybe spend a little more on membership, if necessary... but its not always easy, I know, to find good spots in the right locations..
The new season is upon us..so good chessing
BRING BACK THE BCF

Brian Towers
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Re: The Death of League Chess?

Post by Brian Towers » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:31 pm

David Pardoe wrote:One change I`d make is to encourage an accelerated playing session, with say 35 moves in the first 75mins, followed by say 20 moves in next 15 mins. This would give a game session of 55 moves, which could be followed by either adjournment or adjudication..
My preference would be adjournment after 55 moves, which gives both players plenty of chance to demonstrate they can/are winning, or not..
In practice, this should result in over 97% of games finishing on the night, with most being agreed without resumption..
It's 2016.
Just thought I'd let you know.
1976 was 40 years ago!
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

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Joey Stewart
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Re: The Death of League Chess?

Post by Joey Stewart » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:48 pm

Is that a change you would like to see in the 4ncl?! I am pretty sure if it is you will be in a very small minority of players who would want adjournments in a league which already has satisfactorily long time controls.
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

David Pardoe
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Re: The Death of League Chess?

Post by David Pardoe » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:31 pm

Joey..
My suggested changes (just above), refer to the normal evening leagues, to counter the lottery pot luck effects of the current blitz finishes..
They would pretty much guarantee that over 97% of games finished in one session, and that only a small handful of games would run to a second session over the course of a season in any given league.
I did suggest in another thread that it might be worth considering playing a reduced session of 5.5hrs in the 4NCL Divs 3 & 4, which would give a 7.30pm finish on the Saturday evening.
BRING BACK THE BCF

John Reyes
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Location: Manchester

Re: The Death of League Chess?

Post by John Reyes » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:31 pm

David Pardoe wrote:The title of this thread is somewhat curious...?
Is not the 4NCL a league....and surely not dead.
Maybe in need of a lick of paint, or a few tweeks and upgrades/enhancements..
So too, the more basic traditional formats, which provide hours of `entertainment and challenge` for our players.
Yes, I`m sure there is room to give our league offerings a makeover, and to reinvigorate them with fresh input from a new generation of officials and volunteers, at all levels..
One change I`d make is to encourage an accelerated playing session, with say 35 moves in the first 75mins, followed by say 20 moves in next 15 mins. This would give a game session of 55 moves, which could be followed by either adjournment or adjudication..
My preference would be adjournment after 55 moves, which gives both players plenty of chance to demonstrate they can/are winning, or not..
In practice, this should result in over 97% of games finishing on the night, with most being agreed without resumption..
I`d guess that only a handful of games per season per league might go to more than one playing session, and it would remove the current madness of the open -ended blitz lottery style finishes, where its quite possible for players who may be theoretically winning, to actually lose on time., even with so called 10 sec increments, which are plain daft anyway, and amount to no more than another form of lottery.
That's no way to conclude a good evenings chess... and many think actually spoils a good evenings chess in many cases.
Very exciting and heart stopping it might be... its just turning chess into a lottery..
For those players with good Openning knowledge, a great advantage can be had by reeling off say the first dozen or so moves in 5 mins... but again, this is not a practice that I`d particularly encourage, nor does it make for good chess.

However, on the other side.. chess numbers have lessened over the years since the great Fischer BOOM.
Our Officianadoes and players need to remain proactive and supportive in the cause of encouraging and promoting chess take-up, and in offering their services as volunteers to keep the wheels turning...
Can our clubs and leagues also do more to promote chess, and get publicity in local Press, with occasional league updates and reports, commentary/analysis.. etc.. to keep their local communities in touch with what is going on...and welcoming messages to encourage newbies to visit their local clubs.
Burying ourselves in the web, and hoping joe-public might click the right buttons to find us is not enough.. Many people don't bother trolling through websites looking at such stuff...but I accept that many do, and that does offer some opportunities to reach out to our public..
Make those websites interesting and keep them updated.... a good enthusiastic webmaster is a definite asset to any club or league/county body...
On the matter of publicity.. notices in local shop/Post Office or libraries can help...
I`d also say that the ECF Diary was another option that could be useful.. I found it a good publication... and also a potential tool for advertising and promotion.
It also makes a good Christmas gift/stocking filler...
Having a physical presence has to be good for any group, but again, its important to promote such things..
And sometimes cutting costs slightly by scrapping such things can be counter productive.
I`m not sure the 16 month format was necessary, but I can see why it happened.
I`d also urge clubs to look for good playing venues, and maybe spend a little more on membership, if necessary... but its not always easy, I know, to find good spots in the right locations..
The new season is upon us..so good chessing

We have at our Manchester of if you want to called us Lancashire Team ( :D ) have lost a few members due to the league chess, as they are fed up of the playing time!

I know you always have great ideas but what have you volunteer so far?
Any postings on here represent my personal views only

David Pardoe
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Re: The Death of League Chess?

Post by David Pardoe » Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:26 am

Thanks for your comments John...
As I said earlier, league chess is far from dead... many see it as the main bread and butter option for chess, and it has plenty to offer the aspiring new generation of chess enthusiasts...
As regards your comments re time controls, and Urmston (and other clubs/players), having there reservations about time controls and blitz/pot luck finishes... why don't you raise these points with your club President (who is also President of the MCF). He could then raise this as a formal motion, and try to get things changed. Note...my suggested option would entail a more orderly conclusion, avoiding some of the worst excesses of the current time control fiasco, and lead to very few resumptions. I`d also favour the option of neutral venues for some resumptions.. if suitable venues can be found, to help with travel concerns.
As to your comments about volunteers... I do my bit to try to help... but what is vital is that the new generation of players steps forward to join our clubs and volunteer to serve as Officials.. This would help breath new energy into the chess scene, and our clubs and leagues across the country should be doing there utmost to encourage new members.
There are huge numbers of quite good (and some very good) players playing casual chess on the web... Many would be very welcome at our clubs, and should be encouraged to join up.. Starter/novice leagues for such players should be encouraged/started across our leagues, to cater for the U75, U50 and beginner level players to get on the ladder..
Many players are happy to give advice and informal coaching/tips, etc to new players.. and point them in the right direction.. You don't have to study endless book openings to enjoy club chess, but these options can improve players who aspire to higher levels..
Meeting fellow players face to face, with some banter and social chat can add to the experience, and players can benefit hugely from words of wisdom of other club players. You cant get that on the web...

Enjoy....
BRING BACK THE BCF

Roger de Coverly
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Re: The Death of League Chess?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:35 am

David Pardoe wrote:and lead to very few resumptions
In most parts of the country the consensus is that you want no resumptions at all and you want a full game in the evening. That rather leads to the idea that if the available playing session is three hours, you just divide it in two and give players ninety minutes each, or a variation on that theme. It's then up to players to manage their time, that if not particularly good at seeing and playing good moves within ten seconds, that they utilise their time accordingly.

Not having intermediate time controls reduces time scrambles, since there's no longer the need to worry about reaching the intermediate time control. So if you are at move 30 with 20 minutes remaining, if you need 10 minutes to find a decisive continuation, those minutes can be available. No need to panic about reaching move 40 or where the competition has its first time control.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: The Death of League Chess?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:46 am

Roger de Coverly wrote: It's then up to players to manage their time, that if not particularly good at seeing and playing good moves within ten seconds, that they utilise their time accordingly.
There are some players that always collapse and play horribly in time scrambles. Not just older players. Evening chess with a single playing sessions disadvantages those players. There is no way around that, and that is probably why you will always have some opposition to the idea of single playing sessions that are not long enough for those who play at a certain tempo.

I do think more people should consider playing chess on an increment in evening league chess. If that was offered as an option, I'd take it ahead of normal quickplay finishes.

John Reyes
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Re: The Death of League Chess?

Post by John Reyes » Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:03 pm

David Pardoe wrote:Thanks for your comments John...
As I said earlier, league chess is far from dead... many see it as the main bread and butter option for chess, and it has plenty to offer the aspiring new generation of chess enthusiasts...
I can see your point, but like your venue in stockport is very hard to get to from public transport
As regards your comments re time controls, and Urmston (and other clubs/players), having there reservations about time controls and blitz/pot luck finishes... why don't you raise these points with your club President (who is also President of the MCF). He could then raise this as a formal motion, and try to get things changed.
(our Club President is Not the President of the MCF get your facts right, as it is Mark Davis)

Note...my suggested option would entail a more orderly conclusion, avoiding some of the worst excesses of the current time control fiasco, and lead to very few resumptions. I`d also favour the option of neutral venues for some resumptions.. if suitable venues can be found, to help with travel concerns.
I agreed with you but some clubs are so against it

As to your comments about volunteers... I do my bit to try to help... but what is vital is that the new generation of players steps forward to join our clubs and volunteer to serve as Officials.. This would help breath new energy into the chess scene, and our clubs and leagues across the country should be doing there utmost to encourage new members.
There are huge numbers of quite good (and some very good) players playing casual chess on the web... Many would be very welcome at our clubs, and should be encouraged to join up.. Starter/novice leagues for such players should be encouraged/started across our leagues, to cater for the U75, U50 and beginner level players to get on the ladder..
What was your last Volunteer Job and when?

Mine was the Silver Rep for the ECF as well as the Stockport league captain for our team
Also been to the Lancashire and NCCU meeting as well as the last MCF council meeting


Been tried but as you can see from the Stockport and other league it work for a season and that is?
The rapidplay league is a idea but maybe that well into the future
Many players are happy to give advice and informal coaching/tips, etc to new players.. and point them in the right direction.. You don't have to study endless book openings to enjoy club chess, but these options can improve players who aspire to higher levels..
Meeting fellow players face to face, with some banter and social chat can add to the experience, and players can benefit hugely from words of wisdom of other club players. You cant get that on the web...

I know that Aiden has set up a Social Chess Club right In the heart of the City Centre and hope you will have the time to come down to it as well as anyone else

it at the Crown and Anchor, 41 Hilton St, Manchester M1 2EE


Enjoy....
Last edited by IM Jack Rudd on Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixing quote tags. PLEASE try to nest quotes properly, people.
Any postings on here represent my personal views only

Mick Norris
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Re: The Death of League Chess?

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:11 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:There are some players that always collapse and play horribly in time scrambles. Not just older players. Evening chess with a single playing sessions disadvantages those players. There is no way around that, and that is probably why you will always have some opposition to the idea of single playing sessions that are not long enough for those who play at a certain tempo.

I do think more people should consider playing chess on an increment in evening league chess. If that was offered as an option, I'd take it ahead of normal quickplay finishes.
Home teams in the Manchester League can insist on incremental time controls this season (it was only an option last season), but it looks like not all clubs that have digital clocks will use this option - however, as more players get used to the idea, I expect the take up to grow
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Roger de Coverly
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Re: The Death of League Chess?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:20 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: I do think more people should consider playing chess on an increment in evening league chess. If that was offered as an option, I'd take it ahead of normal quickplay finishes.
Apart from the last five minutes, there's not a lot of difference between playing 90 0 and 80 10. In both cases, you play at as fast a tempo as you feel comfortable with and only bother about the clock when you are down to the last five or ten minutes or so. The difference is that if playing 35 in 75, you look at the scoresheet and it says move 20, you look at the clock and it says 15 minutes to go, then you have to play fifteen moves in fifteen minutes. On the other hand, if you were playing G/90, the clock would say you had thirty minutes left. That's enough for an entire game !

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: The Death of League Chess?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:41 pm

Surely you mean 30 minutes is enough for an entire move? :mrgreen:

David Pardoe
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Re: The Death of League Chess?

Post by David Pardoe » Mon Oct 03, 2016 3:02 pm

John Reyes wrote:
David Pardoe wrote:Thanks for your comments John...
As I said earlier, league chess is far from dead... many see it as the main bread and butter option for chess, and it has plenty to offer the aspiring new generation of chess enthusiasts...
I can see your point, but like your venue in stockport is very hard to get to from public transport
As regards your comments re time controls, and Urmston (and other clubs/players), having there reservations about time controls and blitz/pot luck finishes... why don't you raise these points with your club President (who is also President of the MCF). He could then raise this as a formal motion, and try to get things changed.
(our Club President is Not the President of the MCF get your facts right, as it is Mark Davis)

Note...my suggested option would entail a more orderly conclusion, avoiding some of the worst excesses of the current time control fiasco, and lead to very few resumptions. I`d also favour the option of neutral venues for some resumptions.. if suitable venues can be found, to help with travel concerns.
I agreed with you but some clubs are so against it

As to your comments about volunteers... I do my bit to try to help... but what is vital is that the new generation of players steps forward to join our clubs and volunteer to serve as Officials.. This would help breath new energy into the chess scene, and our clubs and leagues across the country should be doing there utmost to encourage new members.
There are huge numbers of quite good (and some very good) players playing casual chess on the web... Many would be very welcome at our clubs, and should be encouraged to join up.. Starter/novice leagues for such players should be encouraged/started across our leagues, to cater for the U75, U50 and beginner level players to get on the ladder..
What was your last Volunteer Job and when?

Mine was the Silver Rep for the ECF as well as the Stockport league captain for our team
Also been to the Lancashire and NCCU meeting as well as the last MCF council meeting


Been tried but as you can see from the Stockport and other league it work for a season and that is?
The rapidplay league is a idea but maybe that well into the future
Many players are happy to give advice and informal coaching/tips, etc to new players.. and point them in the right direction.. You don't have to study endless book openings to enjoy club chess, but these options can improve players who aspire to higher levels..
Meeting fellow players face to face, with some banter and social chat can add to the experience, and players can benefit hugely from words of wisdom of other club players. You cant get that on the web...

I know that Aiden has set up a Social Chess Club right In the heart of the City Centre and hope you will have the time to come down to it as well as anyone else

it at the Crown and Anchor, 41 Hilton St, Manchester M1 2EE


Enjoy....
John..
Stockport Chess Club is a 10 minute walk from Bramhall Rail station, and there is a direct bus service from Stockport..
Most players travel to away venues by car (with other team players), but I agree that travel can be tricky at times...

Re.. Point about Keith Johnson... He is the MCF President, and one of your club members..(if not now your President)
So you could mention that, or he could take the matter to the MCF if the Urmston club is concerned...
I think many players would welcome an improvement on the current shootout lottery finishes...
It depends what players want... and if the current lottery shootout rules can be moderated or improved on, then that's got to be good for chess.
I`d even favour an adjudication option in some cases, (as a last resort), if a resumption really wasn't practical.. For players to contemplate a very occasional resumption has got to be better than these lottery shootouts..
My scheme might involve one or two team members making a single resumption call per season, and most of these could disappear once the players have looked at the position. I see only a small handful of matches being actually resumed each season per league.

Firstly, though, you have to consider carefully the proposition on offer, and at least you have taken the trouble to read it.. Some players just switch off when the word adjournment is mentioned.

As to volunteering.. I`ve done my fair share.. but this forum is for people to make their comments and observations. If you want a separate section for `Volunteers wanted` then ask Carl to set one up..
I think it could be a good idea for clubs, leagues, congresses, county bodies, Union bodies and other chess bodies to have a forum slot where they can advertise for volunteers, and maybe post some basic details of job /post requirements.

Good luck with your Crown & Anchor efforts...having a city centre venue where players can meet at lunch times, etc is a very good idea..
BRING BACK THE BCF

John Reyes
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Re: The Death of League Chess?

Post by John Reyes » Thu Oct 06, 2016 3:18 pm

we meet on Tuesday night between 7-late!!
Any postings on here represent my personal views only

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