Changing a league's grading limits

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David Blower
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Changing a league's grading limits

Post by David Blower » Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:12 am

So the question is how do I go about doing this (please don't state that I put it forward as a proposal at an AGM, and then it gets voted upon.)

What I mean is, do I need to do some sort of "election campaign" to make sure that people vote for my proposal.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Changing a league's grading limits

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:38 am

David Blower wrote: What I mean is, do I need to do some sort of "election campaign" to make sure that people vote for my proposal.
If you want to change League rules, you need to state what the proposed change will be and why it is a good idea.

A few other people who think it's a good idea will usually help. If it doesn't have general support, you are trying to impose it on clubs and people and they will resent it.

Just take a look at the ECF's proposal last year to outlaw adjudications.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Changing a league's grading limits

Post by Ian Thompson » Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:41 am

David Blower wrote:So the question is how do I go about doing this (please don't state that I put it forward as a proposal at an AGM, and then it gets voted upon.)

What I mean is, do I need to do some sort of "election campaign" to make sure that people vote for my proposal.
My local league has grading limited divisions. When they have been changed it's been on the initiative of the committee. When proposing changes the committee has always supported it with statistics showing why it would be a good thing to do (e.g. to equalise the number of teams in each division).

MSoszynski
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Re: Changing a league's grading limits

Post by MSoszynski » Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:21 am

David Blower wrote:So the question is how do I go about doing this (please don't state that I put it forward as a proposal at an AGM, and then it gets voted upon.)

What I mean is, do I need to do some sort of "election campaign" to make sure that people vote for my proposal.
Something vital comes alongside that. You have to identify and advertise a problem that others will recognise. What may then happen is that those others will come up with better solutions than your own. But unless the "problem" is generally recognised in the first place, and thought to be major and pressing, there won't be a perceived need for anyone's "solution".

Michael Flatt
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Re: Changing a league's grading limits

Post by Michael Flatt » Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:40 am

David,

You need to be a bit more explicit and explain your proposal and reasoning behind it.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Changing a league's grading limits

Post by MartinCarpenter » Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:50 am

Looking at his clubs website I guess its the Cannock league which seems to mandate a maximum aggregate four board grade for each of its three divisions - increasing as you go up (640 1st, 550 2nd, 460 3rd.).

Not sure I've seen anything like that before. I'd logically presume no promotion or relegation involved, so you just slot in whichever division you match(?).

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Changing a league's grading limits

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:43 am

MartinCarpenter wrote:Looking at his clubs website I guess its the Cannock league which seems to mandate a maximum aggregate four board grade for each of its three divisions - increasing as you go up (640 1st, 550 2nd, 460 3rd.).

Not sure I've seen anything like that before. I'd logically presume no promotion or relegation involved, so you just slot in whichever division you match(?).
Probably. The Devon League works the same way (except that the top division has no grading limit).

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Changing a league's grading limits

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:56 am

MartinCarpenter wrote:I guess its the Cannock league which seems to mandate a maximum aggregate four board grade for each of its three divisions - increasing as you go up (640 1st, 550 2nd, 460 3rd.).
I think it's an area, unlike Devon, where there's a choice of local leagues. Putting a limit in a monopoly first division equivalent to 4*160 is asking for trouble when a club's top 4 players aggregate 641 or above.

Aggregate grading restrictions probably work best in leagues with large clubs, as they can always put together a team to meet the restrictions. If the league has several small clubs, I could imagine that the League Controller and AGM need the flexibility to tweak the limits each year to avoid making players ineligible by a point or two.

Mick Norris
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Re: Changing a league's grading limits

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:17 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
MartinCarpenter wrote:Looking at his clubs website I guess its the Cannock league which seems to mandate a maximum aggregate four board grade for each of its three divisions - increasing as you go up (640 1st, 550 2nd, 460 3rd.).

Not sure I've seen anything like that before. I'd logically presume no promotion or relegation involved, so you just slot in whichever division you match(?).
Probably. The Devon League works the same way (except that the top division has no grading limit).
That's the same as the Central Lancs League then

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David Blower
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Re: Changing a league's grading limits

Post by David Blower » Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:53 am

Thanks for all the responses.

The question of assuming grades to ungraded players is another thing as well.

So I will basically ask are there any other aggregate grading leagues, and what assumed grades are given to ungraded players.

MSoszynski
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Re: Changing a league's grading limits

Post by MSoszynski » Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:20 am

David Blower wrote:Thanks for all the responses.

The question of assuming grades to ungraded players is another thing as well.

So I will basically ask are there any other aggregate grading leagues, and what assumed grades are given to ungraded players.
Another thing as well as what?

My Club - Sutton Coldfield - competes in all 3 Divisions of the Cannock League, and in fact I captained teams to the championships of both Division 1 and Division 2 last season. So, I have every interest in the matter. Moreover, our Division 3 Captain will be Cannock League President next year.

What exactly is the problem?

http://www.suttonchess.org.uk

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Changing a league's grading limits

Post by MartinCarpenter » Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:56 am

Have to say that the Cannock league rules for ungraded players do look incredibly reasonable.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Changing a league's grading limits

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:13 am

David Blower wrote: So I will basically ask are there any other aggregate grading leagues, and what assumed grades are given to ungraded players.
It's a problem that applies to any team event with grading restrictions. The usual resolution is appoint a competition controller who would require team captains to agree with the controller a grade for the purpose of the competition. It's usually only necessary to agree that it doesn't exceed X for eligibility purposes. So if adding a new player to a squad in a "total not to exceed 400" competition, with current players 105, 95, 85, it's enough to know that the strength doesn't exceed 115, although for board order purposes you would want to know whether the new player was considered weaker or stronger than the rest of the team.

David Blower
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Re: Changing a league's grading limits

Post by David Blower » Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:44 pm

MSoszynski wrote:
David Blower wrote:Thanks for all the responses.

The question of assuming grades to ungraded players is another thing as well.

So I will basically ask are there any other aggregate grading leagues, and what assumed grades are given to ungraded players.
Another thing as well as what?

My Club - Sutton Coldfield - competes in all 3 Divisions of the Cannock League, and in fact I captained teams to the championships of both Division 1 and Division 2 last season. So, I have every interest in the matter. Moreover, our Division 3 Captain will be Cannock League President next year.

What exactly is the problem?

http://www.suttonchess.org.uk
How many teams have entered Division 1 this season?

MSoszynski
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Re: Changing a league's grading limits

Post by MSoszynski » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:34 pm

David Blower wrote:
MSoszynski wrote:
What exactly is the problem?
How many teams have entered Division 1 this season?
And you want to change that? Because?

Look at the format of Division 2. It's so successful that the Chase Trophy was changed to the same grading limit (U550) with the result that, as intended, more teams entered the Chase Trophy - in fact more than entered Division 2 itself.

Meanwhile Division 1 has recently attracted only 2 or 3 entrants, though at least they play each other home and away, and it's not as if one Club dominates.

So, what is the solution to your problem with Division 1? And will it adversely affect the success of Division 2?

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