An Alzheimer's Cure: Chess & Champagne At Simpsons

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JustinHorton
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Re: An Alzheimer's Cure: Chess & Champagne At Simpsons

Post by JustinHorton » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:06 pm

You got it in one Nige. We've always hated chess and as many people have traditionally taken it up in order to ward off Alzheimer's, we figured we only had to use our influence to cut off this route and we could bring down the whole edifice.

And there's nothing you can do to stop us!

<cackles>
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Nigel_Davies
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Re: An Alzheimer's Cure: Chess & Champagne At Simpsons

Post by Nigel_Davies » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:36 pm

JustinHorton wrote:You got it in one Nige. We've always hated chess and as many people have traditionally taken it up in order to ward off Alzheimer's, we figured we only had to use our influence to cut off this route and we could bring down the whole edifice.

And there's nothing you can do to stop us!

<cackles>
That's what you think! I'll be posting a new anti-Alzheimer's recipe shortly and you'll have to fend those new members off with a stick.

http://tigerchess.com

soheil_hooshdaran
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Re: An Alzheimer's Cure: Chess & Champagne At Simpsons

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:03 am

I entered my email GM Davis.

Thanks for your link.

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Ihor Lewyk
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Re: An Alzheimer's Cure: Chess & Champagne At Simpsons

Post by Ihor Lewyk » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:15 am

Peter Farr wrote
"Jonathan Bryant has gone through this subject in a lot more detail and with a lot more rigour on the S&B blog. It may not have as much kudos as the New York Times, but that doesn't make the S&B stuff wrong."

Is it Dr Jonathan Bryant leading Alzheimer researcher at Oxbridge University or something?
How rigorourous? What evidence do you have that he's more right than anyone else?

Brendan O'Gorman
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Re: An Alzheimer's Cure: Chess & Champagne At Simpsons

Post by Brendan O'Gorman » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:25 am

Ihor Lewyk wrote:Peter Farr wrote
"Jonathan Bryant has gone through this subject in a lot more detail and with a lot more rigour on the S&B blog. It may not have as much kudos as the New York Times, but that doesn't make the S&B stuff wrong."

Is it Dr Jonathan Bryant leading Alzheimer researcher at Oxbridge University or something?
How rigorourous? What evidence do you have that he's more right than anyone else?
Ihor, I think you're asking the wrong question. It's not as if Jonathan were claiming to have conducted direct research into the issue. He's just saying "show me the reputable evidence that chess delays Alzheimer's, because I can't find any."

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Nigel_Davies
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Re: An Alzheimer's Cure: Chess & Champagne At Simpsons

Post by Nigel_Davies » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:52 am

Unfortunately none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the way the real World works. There is evidence for chess being useful against Alzheimer's and other mental conditions, but is admittedly far from conclusive. But hang on a second, do yoga people go to massive lengths to question the evidence that their activity has proven benefits? What about the government when it advocates increased homework, invading Iraq etc. But here we are, standing on our little island of chess, facing a massive decrease in numbers over the coming years and chess 'enthusiasts' are arguing that the evidence for chess isn't really good enough as Verghese only mentioned BOARD GAMES and the other studies were of dubious merit. To add perspective then Jonathan Bryant and friends should at least visit other areas with their ruminations, for example with a review of Alfie Kohn's book 'The Homework Myth'. Why just pick on chess?

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MartinCarpenter
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Re: An Alzheimer's Cure: Chess & Champagne At Simpsons

Post by MartinCarpenter » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:59 am

It is a bit extreme :) Mind you, from this sort of perspective, I don't actually think anyone sane would really try to use chess as a population level intervention. Great game but just too brutal/hard to enjoy unless vs fairly balanced opposition. Bridge, or sundry other board games (and some other stuff) would suit much better.

As for the evidence, I still think its such a plausible a priori position that it'd help a little that you'd surely want solid evidence against it to get animated.
(Maybe, as per one solid looking link from earlier in the thread suggested, its more about coping for longer before seeing symptoms then dropping off faster once it really hits. That's still very positive!)

NickFaulks
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Re: An Alzheimer's Cure: Chess & Champagne At Simpsons

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:05 pm

Nigel_Davies wrote: What about the government when it advocates increased homework, invading Iraq etc.
If that's the standard against which you're comparing yourself, we can safely forget the whole thing now.
Why just pick on chess?
Because this is a chess forum.

Mick Norris
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Re: An Alzheimer's Cure: Chess & Champagne At Simpsons

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:08 pm

Jonathan has suggested the following, if he'll forgive me quoting him and putting part in bold
If the ECF are going to stick to the blanket claims about the effectiveness of chess in delaying Alzheimer’s with qualification with regard to age, they need to explain why they’re so out of step with the NICE guidelines. So why not do something else?

Given that associations have been found - again, see The Knowledge Pile for some relevant studies - between participation in cognitively stimulating activities and positive dementia outcomes when people over retirement age are studied, why not start there? Why not use that information to advocate for a programme aimed at encouraging older people to learn and play chess?

This is the future that I suggest for the ECF and its involvement with dementia. Go back to Doctor Coyle and the conclusion reached in this series a year and a half and 29 posts ago (DG VII):-


... participation in cognitively demanding leisure activities in late life may provide protection against dementia,
...
Determining the relative contributions of genes that confer risk and environmental factors such as effortful mental activity to the pathogenesis of dementia remains an important but unrealized goal in research on dementia. In the meantime, seniors should be encouraged to read, play board games, and go ballroom dancing, because these activities, at the very least, enhance their quality of life, and they might just do more than that.
Use it or Lose It - Do Effortful Mental Activities Protect against Dementia?

New England Journal of Medicine 2003; 348: 2489-2490
http://streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.c ... ealth.html

Maybe with a changing of the guard at the ECF, we might get this

Or if you want a different idea, how about ECF Members being encouraged to become dementia friends?
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

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Ihor Lewyk
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Re: An Alzheimer's Cure: Chess & Champagne At Simpsons

Post by Ihor Lewyk » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:13 pm

Mr Bryant has tried to discredit numerous theories and papers from scientists and reputable journalists without being any sort of expert in the field and without a shred of evidence to support this.
He's obviously not an expert in the field of Alzheimer research and the evidence points him to be an chess hobbyist at best!
So when he says he can't find any reputable evidence to support that chess delays Alzheimer's would he even know it when he stumbled across it!

Roger de Coverly
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Re: An Alzheimer's Cure: Chess & Champagne At Simpsons

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:21 pm

Ihor Lewyk wrote: So when he says he can't find any reputable evidence to support that chess delays Alzheimer's would he even know it when he stumbled across it!
It's not obvious to anyone else for that matter. The best that can be found is the plausible assertion that mental activity may prevent mental degradation. Statements by journalists or for that matter Grandmasters or ECF Directors stating that "studies show" doesn't make it true, when the "studies" don't actually mention chess.

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Ihor Lewyk
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Re: An Alzheimer's Cure: Chess & Champagne At Simpsons

Post by Ihor Lewyk » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:40 pm

Roger.
But we are discussing the studies that mention chess aren't we?
At least the rest of us seem to be.
So your comment above doesn't really add anything here does it!

Roger de Coverly
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Re: An Alzheimer's Cure: Chess & Champagne At Simpsons

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:50 pm

Ihor Lewyk wrote:Roger.
But we are discussing the studies that mention chess aren't we?
At least the rest of us seem to be.
So your comment above doesn't really add anything here does it!
The point is that once you get past the claims and assertions of chess journalists and others writing about chess, there is next to nothing that directly associates chess one way or the other with medical conditions.

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Re: An Alzheimer's Cure: Chess & Champagne At Simpsons

Post by Angus French » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:55 pm

Ihor Lewyk wrote:But we are discussing the studies that mention chess aren't we?
Which studies mention (or make a claim for) chess?

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Nigel_Davies
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Re: An Alzheimer's Cure: Chess & Champagne At Simpsons

Post by Nigel_Davies » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:59 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:It's not obvious to anyone else for that matter. The best that can be found is the plausible assertion that mental activity may prevent mental degradation. Statements by journalists or for that matter Grandmasters or ECF Directors stating that "studies show" doesn't make it true, when the "studies" don't actually mention chess.
Researchers will want to use a range of mentally stimulating activities in order to increase their sample size of suitable subjects and also, if their results are positive, show how different activities will be useful. To produce a study based exclusively on chess, checkers, crosswords or reading a newspaper would make it far more difficult to run the study and then have results useful only to the area examined.

So it's certainly true to say that activities that stimulate the mind, such as chess, have been shown to delay cognitive decline. To then say that chess helps delay cognitive decline also seems reasonable, and I don't think that any of the researchers would object to this. Similarly one could say that other mentally stimulating activities such as bridge and crosswords help delay cognitive decline.

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