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Re: Players playing above their sections in congresses

Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 11:24 am
by Angus French
FWIW, ECF Swiss pairing rules are available here: http://chessarbiters.co.uk/pairings.aspx

Ben, I assume your first round bye was a half-point bye.

I wonder: Did your round 2 opponent play in round 1 (presumable yes, as round 2 pairings between players who scored half-point byes in round 1 are to be avoided – rule 34) and did he score a draw (thus avoiding an upfloat in round 2)? If yes, was this against a higher-rated player? If yes, could your opponent be considered to have earned his pairing against you?

Re: Players playing above their sections in congresses

Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 11:29 am
by benedgell
I dont recall the exact results of the tournament, but this was never the point. I get the feeling I may have mis-communicated my point in the original posting, because it was never intended specifically about my opponent, more about how organisers decide in general. The game in question sparked my thinking about it, and yes, Id rather have faced a much higher graded opponent then lower, but I played, had a good game, and went on to face a stronger opponent in the next round.

Re: Players playing above their sections in congresses

Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 11:42 am
by benedgell
I agree to a certain extent with that. But 100 minimum in the open? You'd still have a fair possibility of a 60, 70, 80 point grade difference if someone with the minimum entered an open.

Re: Players playing above their sections in congresses

Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 12:03 pm
by TomChivers
Adam Raoof wrote:
This meant he was effectively paying £25 for 3 games
I sometimes feel like this when I turn up and find I am playing a Grandmaster in the first round.
Or £25 for three games plus one lesson!?

I agree with those who see no problem in players entering higher sections.

Re: Players playing above their sections in congresses

Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 12:55 pm
by Andrew Farthing
Even down in the Minor and Major sections, I'm sure I'm not alone in getting a sinking feeling when I'm paired against an ungraded player or someone more than 40 points below my own modest 122. That's mainly because I know that the odds are that it won't be as easy as it "ought" to be - you can get tough games against anyone, and more and more players are capable of playing solidly and letting the pressure of wanting to avoid the draw build up in the 'stronger' player.

This is all just part of the game. I know equally well that I may have a psychological advantage when I'm the weaker player, because anything better than a loss is a bonus and all the pressure is on the other guy.

I can see the sense in organisers checking back with the entrants if they've entered a section more than one above the minimum they qualify for. Playing up one section just looks like sensible ambition to me. I think the Blackpool entry form (or it might be Scarborough) actually includes a box for players to tick if playing up a section, confirming that this was intentional. Perhaps this would be an easy way to resolve the issue?

Andrew Farthing

Re: Players playing above their sections in congresses

Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 1:39 pm
by Kevin Thurlow
When I run tournaments, my only worry is if someone is trying to play too low a section - if they want to play up a section, then good luck to them. (You might perhaps worry if you are looking at FIDE rating possibilities and you get too many unrateds.) If I think entrants are inexperienced, I might ask if they ticked the wrong box. Some players do better against better opposition, or maybe they just want the chance of playing someone really good. And after all, you might get a quick win or loss against somebody good!

Re: Players playing above their sections in congresses

Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 2:14 pm
by Gavin Strachan
I remember coming back to chess after a break five years ago and not really sure what my grade was thought I would go into several open events. I got royally smacked in every single one never scoring more than 1 point! Next season, got a grade a went on to win several tournaments in the graded sections or come in quite high (top few places). My grade is about right at the mo so I usually get a par score.

Re: Players playing above their sections in congresses

Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 3:48 pm
by IM Jack Rudd
Ben's first round opponent had also taken a bye in round 1, as it happens. With only three drawn games in the first round and nine players taking first round byes, I had two pairings in round 2 containing two players who'd taken byes on the Friday night. (Although two of the players in question had actually arrived on the Friday night and elected not to play that round.)

Re: Players playing above their sections in congresses

Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 4:03 pm
by IM Jack Rudd
E Michael White wrote: I am not much of an expert on this but a good bet seems to me to be to put ½ point bye players into score groups 1 or 0 depending on whether they are in the top or bottom half of the whole section based on grades, on the grounds that that is where they would probably be had they played round 1. Of course this wouldn’t work where arbiters do one of those artistic hyper-accelerated draws.
Actually, that would work with accelerated draws, and indeed is often done with them: the top-half players on ½ face bottom-half players on 1, and the bottom-half players on ½ face top-half players on 0. (This, of course, needs to be adjusted with respect to how many players from each half you have in each score-group.)

Re: Players playing above their sections in congresses

Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 8:28 pm
by benedgell
The general consensus seems to be that organisers are fairly happy to let most people enter the next section up should they wish. I know a congress, from a few years back, that had a large number of the entrants in the open section who were graded towards the top end of the major section. Now for the players in question you can understand it, but for some of the stronger players in the open, it was less of an attractive prospect facing 1, 2 possibly 3 of the rounds against vastly lower graded opposition. It continued over a few years and the number of 180+ graded players dwindled. I should mention, before anyone tries to guess the congress, that it is now greatly improved in terms of playing strength, but nevertheless, something to think about.

Re: Players playing above their sections in congresses

Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 9:18 pm
by Ben Purton
I would say "I struggle to respect the sub 150's in open's" but I really struggle to slow down and respect anyone under 200 grade. Ill always play at 10 seconds a move V people I dont care about beating or losing against.

I do think players who regularly play in opens who just dont improve are just pointless opponents.

Ben

Re: Players playing above their sections in congresses

Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 9:22 pm
by James Coleman
Ben Purton wrote:I would say "I struggle to respect the sub 150's in open's" but I really struggle to slow down and respect anyone under 200 grade. Ill always play at 10 seconds a move V people I dont care about beating or losing against.

I do think players who regularly play in opens who just dont improve are just pointless opponents.

Ben
Tactful as ever mate ;-)

Re: Players playing above their sections in congresses

Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 10:29 pm
by E Michael White
FM Jack Rudd wrote: Actually, that would work with accelerated draws
Jack

I dont think it has the same effect as an accelerated SS. My suggestion was to replace SS rule 34 to look at the ½ point byers and see where they are in relation to the whole open section based on grades; whereas the accelerated SS looks at the top half of the ½ group alone based on grades.

eg In a standard weekend SS you and two other IMs take a bye in round 1 along with a 120 player, no other players taking byes. You and the IMs are likely to be in the top half of the whole open event and should be treated as scoring 1 and the 120 player as scoring 0 for the purpose of the round 2 draw.

I think this modification is more likely to produce the right event winner and keep most players happy in the process.

Re: Players playing above their sections in congresses

Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 9:40 am
by Ben Purton
:lol: I was being honest. I don't mind playing 120's in league matches, but when your paying £40 a night, unless their improving juniors then it feels pointless. Some of you might point to me playing annurai and hui in 4ncl as hypocritical. Hardly as one is going from 30 grade to 145 and the other from 70 to 130(and shes female which is 4ncl rule) , so these both fall under somewhat improving.

When you pay £50 a game on average like 4ncl, hastings, whatever the congress, you sort of expect not to play random hand. Theres a time and place for those sort of entries, like in adams tournament, where you spend like £25 total playing 6 rounds, you cant mind 1-2 120's because its just a laugh playing rapdiplay.


People say its anti chess but I JUST!! fall in to the era when a) you had to be good to have a FIDE rating and b) you had to have a FIDE rating to play 4NCL, when i was a 150 Junior I struggled to get a 4NCL side. Now theres about 50 suitors for such a player. Is this a good thing? Surely you need an elite league to aim for. It was a big inspiration to a) wear the yellow jumper of junior squad(something I never got to do) and b) get a FIDE. Devaluing both achievements leads to the term "different era" bit like being 200 ECF under old and new grading systems, it will never be the same again....

Ben

Re: Players playing above their sections in congresses

Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 10:31 am
by Mike Gunn
Since old ECF grade 200 translates to new ECF grade 202 under the approximate formula it's going to be (almost) exactly the same! It's being under 100 that will never be the same.

PS As somebody with a current BCF grade of 117 who is contemplating playing in the Major (for the experience) at Torquay, I look forward to playing you!